Electric Power For Boats On The Broads

[Andrewcook]

Hi all my main gripe is this Government of the Day is pushing us too fast that's with Car's being all Electric and Boats if and when it comes to a push and shove as it has been said already in this topic the cost is going to be a one hell of a wack in any one's pocket .

[Bikertov]

13 minutes ago, rightsaidfred said:

I will leave the technical stuff to others, there are and can only ever be a limited number of charging points down to access to most locations nowhere near enough to be feasible, I am also of the opinion that electric propulsion is only a short term fix that will be superseded before being fully implemented at a considerable financial cost that will not be recoverable to most who convert, there is certainly far more involved than a change of engine type and batteries.

Fred

I am certainly in agreement with you on the part (I have) bolded, in particular in respect of cars.

But I do wonder if inland leisure boats are more suited to electric.

[rightsaidfred]

Remember that it has already been said before the government proposal for boats at the moment is 2050

Fred

[Mouldy]

Surely the country’s ability to support the potential requirement for electricity is the first consideration that needs to be answered. If everyone were to buy an electric car over the next couple of years with a fast charger at their home, would our current (no pun intended) be able to cope with the demand or would we not be able to use our cookers until the car was charged.

Once again, the politicians have jumped onto a bandwagon to satisfy the eco-warriors without looking at the long term consequences, in much the same way as banning the fitting of gas boilers to new homes from 2025.  Heat pumps exist, but due to our climate really aren’t suitable to use in the UK.  Ground source heat pumps work, but require a sufficiently large plot of land for the underground pipe work necessary, that the average UK home wouldn’t support.

Hydrogen fuel cells are the way forward, for road vehicles in particular, but everyone seems to have jumped on the electric option as a solution and appear to have neglected research and development on anything else.

[Bikertov]

12 minutes ago, grendel said:

the issue is the charging infrastructure, most marinas would not have the current capacity to charge all their boats, so new substations (plural) would be needed, new supply cables, and then the normal few hour handover window would haveto go out of the window, because boats could not be sent out low on charge, a boats fuel will easily last a week, yet electricity would require plugging in every day.

putting charging points at remote locations will be difficult, for the number of boats that will use them daily, its not economically viable, for example I have calculated Hardley cross would cost nearly £1 million to get a supply to as it is miles from anywhere and miles from the nearest network, there are no roads, and overhead lines across the marshes would be a planning no no (as well as electrically insecure) and then any supply capacity would have to be available at the nearest network point.

I think we can all agree that the general electricity / substation infrastructure needs beefing up across the country, to support electric cars and increased household usage to replace fossil fuels. So that need addressing anyway.

And I am sure you are right (if I recall this is your field of work ?) on costs for places like Hardley Cross.

But does the infrastructure need to reach to such places - there are not diesel points there or in other remote places. I think that part of the argument is a bit of a red herring

Could more general moorings, in easily accessible places, be provided with beefed up shore power for propulsion recharges.

[grendel]

you have to bear in mind that with the current price of copper that cable prices are volatile and vary daily, but at current costs to provide and lay 1km of high voltage cable to a substation (2 cables will be needed for security of network, we are talking around £30,000 to dig and lay a cable trench to the DNO specifications for standard depth in footpath (600mm), and a lot more over agricultural land as the depth needed to avoid cable damage is nearly double (1000mm to top of cable), so maybe double that figure for twice the depth, and double again for 2 cables, and we are talking over £100,000 per km, Hardley cross is about 6KM from the nearest network- if a practical route with access can be found, then there is the price of switchgear, transformers, the LV infrastructure to supply the charging posts, which would have to supply the full length of the moorings, and this will be repeated over many moorings down the southern end of the network, which currently has very few charging points. all these costs will have to be paid up front before the electricity company will install the network, and how much could the Authority charge for these points, - no more than the current price per unit of electricity as the price is regulated by the electricity regulator. hard to see how they would make the difference up in tolls.

[floydraser]

1 minute ago, Mouldy said:

Hydrogen fuel cells are the way forward, for road vehicles in particular, but everyone seems to have jumped on the electric option as a solution and appear to have neglected research and deon anything else.

They are letting businesses fleece us for electric vehicles at the moment. They are researching Hydrogen power but it won't come in until the electric rush has died down. Once there is a levelling off of electric sales, probably when HMG starts taxing electric company cars properly, hydrogen will be announced as the way forward. Just my guess.

[Mouldy]

10 minutes ago, Bikertov said:

And I am sure you are right (if I recall this is your field of work ?) on costs for places like Hardley Cross.

But does the infrastructure need to reach to such places - there are not diesel points there or in other remote places. I think that part of the argument is a bit of a red herring. . . .. . 

Certainly not.  The ability to moor in quieter locations is one of the attractions of a holiday afloat.  I don’t want to moor up every night stern on rubbing gunwales with the boat next door.  The truth is that most Broads cruisers carry sufficient fuel to not require topping up for several days at the very least.  Current technology would surely require charging a boat overnight, fairly much every night, unless you restrict your. cruising range.

The cost of batteries and moreover how they need to be disposed of at the end of their useful life are questions that need to be resolved before this crazy idea is realised.  Technology has come a long way, but needs to go a lot further yet before this can become viable.

[Oddfellow]

1 hour ago, Bikertov said:

I guess it depends on battery capacity, motor power and hence cruising time, comparing like-for-like.

Once you remove a large heavy engine, starter battery and fuel tank, you could have the space for a decent set of propulsion power batteries. Weight and space is also not quite the same issue as with cars. 

Could you combine the propulsion batteries with the domestic batteries, or at least allow an emergency bypass function if you run low.

The boat systems already allow for charging, so it would just need modifications rather than a whole new system.

How many electric hook up points are there currently for shore power away from marinas ? Is it widespread ? (my ignorance on these things is now showing).

 

No doubt someone far more knowledgeable than me, like Vaughan, will shortly drop in and completely demolish my points - but I genuinely welcome the discussion.

Lithium Ion Batteries are VERY different from the Wet Cell batteries used in the vast majority of river boats on the Broads. 

You point about charging is null because currently, the charging circuits are supplied by the very things electrification will remove: the engine. 

Charging currently, is one wire from an alternator to a diode or other non-return system which is already connected to the battery bank. 

Lithuim Ion batteries require a proper battery management system to be installed that can monitor each bank of cells (which must be balanced before installation) and deliver the correct amount of charge. Furthermore, storing a such batteries fully charged will damage them The BMS (Battery Management System) will control the battery levels to around 70% charge when the batteries are not in use to prolong their life. Therefore, if you're on a non-powered mooring and use the boat once a month, you'll arrive to batteries that are partially discharged. 

Also, marinas will have to seriously upgrade their power networks too. It's not just river moorings that this will directly affect; it's boatyards, bank moorings, everywhere. 

I do not know quite enough to see whether you'd still have propulsion and domestic banks. I suspect you would and the size of these would be hugely different. You'd get away with 300-500 amps for domestic but many times this for propulsion. 

Solar is barely an option. It would benefiit the domestic systems, but there simply isn't enough surface area to make a dent in propulsion bank charging.  

 

[grendel]

5 minutes ago, Mouldy said:

Surely the country’s ability to support the potential requirement for electricity is the first consideration that needs to be answered. If everyone were to buy an electric car over the next couple of years with a fast charger at their home, would our current (no pun intended) be able to cope with the demand or would we not be able to use our cookers until the car was charged.

well the national grid jumped in early and laid claim that they would be able to supply the electricity, a claim I personally doubt, but thats a moot point anyway as the distributors dont have the capacity in their networks to get it from the national grid to the customer, in fact the electricity regulator has made it impossible to future proof the network by installing a bigger asset than a customer requests, if a customer asks for 1MVA, then thats all you are allowed to install, you might know that another 1MVA will be needed in 4 years, but the regulator wont allow you to future proof your network by installing a bigger transformer now.

we might have been ready if we had been allowed to install spare capacity, and had started 20 years ago

[Oddfellow]

5 minutes ago, Mouldy said:

Certainly not.  The ability to moor in quieter locations is one of the attractions of a holiday afloat.  I don’t want to moor up every night stern on rubbing gunwales with the boat next door.  The truth is that most Broads cruisers carry sufficient fuel to not require topping up for several days at the very least.  Current technology would surely require charging a boat overnight, fairly much every night, unless you restrict your. cruising range.

The cost of batteries and moreover how they need to be disposed of at the end of their useful life are questions that need to be resolved before this crazy idea is realised.  Technology has come a long way, but needs to go a lot further yet before this can become viable.

Heck yes. Electric is an answer, not THE answer with the current tech. It's not just the financial cost of the batteries, its the environmental cost too and, as you point out, the end of life costs. 

 

[grendel]

15 minutes ago, Mouldy said:

Once again, the politicians have jumped onto a bandwagon to satisfy the eco-warriors without looking at the long term consequences, in much the same way as banning the fitting of gas boilers to new homes from 2025

once again the national grid have jumped in saying they can provide the extra capacity to have all new homes electrically heated, unfortunately in saying this they use those same reserves they claim to have to provide electric vehicle charging, very carefully not mentioning its an either or situation, and then again there is getting it to those new homes over our aged infrastucture.

[rightsaidfred]

11 minutes ago, Bikertov said:

 

But does the infrastructure need to reach to such places - there are not diesel points there or in other remote places. I think that part of the argument is a bit of red herring.

 

Not at all I can cruise North to South for a fortnight and not use half a tank including heating  so only need one refuelling point along with pump out at the same time, diesel is the only versatile option and doesn't require any forward planning.  

Fred 

[OldBerkshireBoy]

New fangled all singing and dancing water mill type wheel in water to generate electric as you move or static pods around the broads located to collect as the tide comes and goes?

[grendel]

I manage to cruise for a week on water rail on a 45 (max) litre tank, I dont imagine the best set of batteries that could be fitted to a 26 foot boat could manage that.

[grendel]

27 minutes ago, Bikertov said:

I think we can all agree that the general electricity / substation infrastructure needs beefing up across the country, to support electric cars and increased household usage to replace fossil fuels. So that need addressing anyway

It does, but it wont be happening within the government timescales they are currently working to, because you would be looking at a 30+ year programme of work to achieve it. the transformer manufacturers would need to at least double their output of transformers, currently there are lead times of around 20 weeks on transformer supplies, and if you go to the bigger sizes for energy transmission across the country, the lead time is measured in years. Its just not possible, no matter what the government try to push.

[TheQ]

8 minutes ago, grendel said:

I manage to cruise for a week on water rail on a 45 (max) litre tank, I dont imagine the best set of batteries that could be fitted to a 26 foot boat could manage that.

My electric 27ft boat will make Horning to Potter on one set of lead acid batteries, I could squeeze in another set of lead acids to make the return journey. I could also fit in more capacity if I used lithium, but don't want to get a second mortgage..

So my solution, a generator (diesel) for the longer journeys and return that's wound up first..

[annv]

First electric power is not for every boat, But if you have electric on your mooring already you have the ability to have battery power, Next forget fast charging with high power requirements the most economical battery's are NiFe's these are suitable in a boat because the weight is not a issue and they have a 30year life cycle That's way they use them in milk floats,  fork lifts etc they cant be fast charged so the present power points are suitable or be it there will be need for more plus the White Meter rate can be used, Second they are unlikely to be fitted to existing boats So we are looking to the future,  solar panels can be used which will charge during day light hours (weather permitting) nothing will be cheaper but if? When fossil fuels become scarce and more costly the benefits of electric become more viable with the benefit of no noise and less pollution. who no's what's round the corner, Why do people be so negative twenty years ago electric cars where not spoke of now every new car in ten years time will be electric where will the power come from? if there is a demand it is invariable found/provided. John

[Mouldy]

26 minutes ago, floydraser said:

 . . . . . . . . . . Once there is a levelling off of electric sales, probably when HMG starts taxing electric company cars properly, hydrogen will be announced as the way forward. Just my guess.

Taxation of electric vehicles is going to come, as purely electric cars are currently exempt from paying road fund licence.  Not only that, but the exchequer cannot afford to lose the revenue generated by sales of petrol and diesel with fuel duty and VAT applied, which comprises a large proportion of the cost of a litre/gallon of fuel against 5% VAT on electricity.

Following the pandemic and substantial levels of borrowing required to pay for its associated costs, it’s hard to imagine that they’ll leave this currently untapped source of revenue for long, especially as more and more people are blinded into believing that electric cars are the way forward.

[Bikertov]

There is a lot of discussion and comments around infrastructure, and why it can't cope with the demand and recharge points - and I understand / accept a lot of the comments.

What about the technology in the boats, both drive (motors) and fuel (batteries) - this has been touched on but not in great detail.

Some of you are saying that you get weeks cruising and heating out of a tank of diesel, but without actual figures to compare it is difficult to see how batteries would stack up against this.

We would need to understand the capacity of a diesel tank, the energy that provided to the engine (ignore heating for now), then compare that to electric propulsion and the power needed for the same distance / time.

[grendel]

Horning to Potter is hardly a 5 hour days cruise, I like my 5 hour cruises, and some occasions will get up to 8 hours in, I somehow dont see me getting from Dilham to Polkeys mill on one charge, and then arriving to find no charging posts there either.

[grendel]

4 minutes ago, annv said:

twenty years ago electric cars where not spoke of now every new car in ten years time will be electric

20 years ago electric cars were being spoken about, and I was saying that we should be installing car charging points in every car park, but I was told that wasnt economical as there were too few cars to use them, unfortunately, the general public werent keen on buying electric vehicles without the charging infrastructure in place.

[Mouldy]

3 minutes ago, annv said:

First electric power is not for every boat, But if you have electric on your mooring already you have the ability to have battery power, Next forget fast charging with high power requirements the most economical battery's are NiFe's these are suitable in a boat because the weight is not a issue and they have a 30year life cycle That's way they use them in milk floats,  fork lifts etc they cant be fast charged so the present power points are suitable or be it there will be need for more Second they are unlikely to be fitted to existing boats So we are looking to the future,  solar panels can be used which will charge during day light hours (weather permitting) nothing will be cheaper but if? When fossil fuels become scarce and more costly the benefits of electric become more viable with the benefit of no noise and less pollution. who no's what's round the corner, Why do people be so negative twenty years ago electric cars where not spoke of now every new car in ten years time will be electric where will the power come from? if there is a demand it is invariable found/provided. John

Not negativity, but reality.  Electric vehicles are not the way forward.  Hydrogen fuel cells are, but need development and investment.  When the only byproduct of a car driven by such a system is water, what could be more environmentally friendly.

Too many people have been taken in by bovine excrement spoken about electric cars and continue to be taken in.  It’s a short term solution to a long term problem.

[Bikertov]

1 minute ago, grendel said:

20 years ago electric cars were being spoken about, and I was saying that we should be installing car charging points in every car park, but I was told that wasnt economical as there were too few cars to use them, unfortunately, the general public werent keen on buying electric vehicles without the charging infrastructure in place.

Unfortunately this is very much chicken and egg, both for cars and boats.

In the same was the LPG was touted as being an answer to cutting pollution a few years back, but how many pumps do you see that can supply it ?

[annv]

And how do they produce Hydrogen?  Electricity!. John