Electric Power For Boats On The Broads

[BroadAmbition]

Heat Sauce?

Red or brown 

Griff

[FairTmiddlin]

1 hour ago, BroadAmbition said:

Heat Sauce?

Red or brown 

Griff

No For that you need Chilli

Anyone thinking of an Air or ground source heat pump I would look at this first

 

[grendel]

If installed before the rest of the build a communal ground source heating system would be a lot cheaper, my company also have the facilities to provide district heating for new estates, we believe we are the only company in the world capable of delivering 7 utilities as a combined package (at the moment)- but only to new estates.

[Vaughan]

I said I would do another post about the logistics of operating electric hire boats.  Luckily a lot of this has already been covered by other posters, which makes it easier for me!

I will also let others (who are specialists) discuss the power needed at charging points, the civil engineering needed to install them and of course, the cost in public money!

Then there will be the question of planning permission.  One little colony of newts or snails at the corner of a field, can stop work for years.  Vis : the Acle Straight.

So let's look at it from the customer's point of view.  You have hired your boat and after what will have to be a comprehensive trial run, you set off, armed with a list of the places where you will find charging points.  These will be the only places on the Broads where you can stop for the night on your holiday and it follows that they will be the major and most crowded places.  Unless you choose to spend the night at another boatyard, to use their charging facilities.

And what about the pubs?  They will have to instal and pay for charging points as well, if they want to have customers.  So how much will they then charge for overnight mooring?  Or, more likely, will they go out of business, so no more pubs on the river?  Their business is quite shaky enough as it is!

And what happens when you arrive at Ranworth Maltsters to find that the 5 charging points that they have installed amid a blaze of publicity and flag waving, are already taken?  If you are the 6th one to arrive, you don't get to charge up.  So next morning, the only solution is that you phone the breakdown number and get towed into the nearest boatyard - where you will spend at least the next 5 or 6 hours on charge before you can move again.

And what happens when a non electric boat is moored on the charging point and won't move?  Its crew may not even be on board.  Or when you arrive at a BA mooring to find a group of big hairy fishermen, who chuck live bait at you when you try to moor up.  They are not going to move either!  On a diesel boat you can just choose to find somewhere else more peaceful, but on an electric one - you can't.

There is one essential ground rule about this operation : if a yard has 10 electric boats for hire, then there must be 10 charging points at each major location in the cruising area.  Just a couple for luck, will not do.  I promise you, this is where it will go wrong.  I have seen it happen.

I think you can already see that an electric cruise on the Broads is not going to be much fun!  It takes away all the choice of location, freedom and tranquility that we know and love about the Broads.  No more wild mooring, no mud weight on Surlingham Broad and almost certainly, no remote BA locations such as Rockland Dyke or even St Benets Abbey.  I have often said that I feel a Broads cruiser must be autonomous : able to provide its own power for living aboard anywhere on the river, without having to depend on shore facilities.

Anyway, the introduction of electric boats cannot be retrospective.  You wouldn't be able to convert an old boat from diesel to electric, either practically or economically.  So it can only apply to new boat building.  As a large number of Richardsons fleet are already over 40 years old and going strong, I think we will have a rather long time to wait before we see any big changes!

[rightsaidfred]

Thanks Vaughan.

As I have pointed out before current government proposals for boats don't come in till 2050 so diesel boats will be around for most of this century.

Fred  

[Mouldy]

16 hours ago, FairTmiddlin said:

No For that you need Chilli

Anyone thinking of an Air or ground source heat pump I would look at this first

 

Good find!  Balanced and informative, with a lot of good points raised.

[Oddfellow]

The obvious (to my thinking) mid-way point for going Green is hybrid systems with electric propulsion with power derived from a generator or a diesel/electric hybrid power train. This allows complete autonomy. 

BUT, I don't know nearly enough about the efficiency of these systems. Do you burn more diesel charging the batteries than you would to push the boat along? If it's significantly less, then the there has to be an environmental benefit. if the difference is marginal, there's probably little point. 

 

[Vaughan]

15 minutes ago, Oddfellow said:

Do you burn more diesel charging the batteries than you would to push the boat along?

I was always taught that one of the main principles of science is that nothing is for free.

If you want energy, you will always have to pay for it, somewhere along the line.  This is why there can be no such thing as a perpetual motion engine.

In fact Langford Jillings built a diesel/electric cruiser about 20 years ago, based on the principle of a mobile crane that he had been following to work in his car!  He was that kind of innovator.  In fact it did not succeed, as the power for the electric motor had to be provided by a Perkins 4108 diesel generator.

[Bikertov]

56 minutes ago, Oddfellow said:

The obvious (to my thinking) mid-way point for going Green is hybrid systems with electric propulsion with power derived from a generator or a diesel/electric hybrid power train. This allows complete autonomy. 

BUT, I don't know nearly enough about the efficiency of these systems. Do you burn more diesel charging the batteries than you would to push the boat along? If it's significantly less, then the there has to be an environmental benefit. if the difference is marginal, there's probably little point. 

 

This might be where things are going. 

Trains have been hybrid for years - many locomotives being 'diesel electric'

I saw a great video last night of a 68' boat that was hybrid (based in Florida I think). They were saying that it was ideal for tootling around the local waterway, then diesel for going out to see. Reckoned it saved a large %age of engine idling hours when it ran on battery.

From memory, it had 145kwh of battery capacity, and could run all the ships systems from it. It had a range of 15nm on battery, via 2x 60kW motors

The electric motors turned into generators when on diesel power, to recharge the batteries.

Volvo have come out with a hybrid system:

https://www.volvopenta.com/en-gb/about-us/news-media/press-releases/2018/jun/volvo-penta-unveils-hybrid-marine-propulsion-concept/

Of course, on a large boat you have the room for all the systems and batteries, but could the concept be 'miniaturised' for Broads size boats ?

[Oddfellow]

51 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

I was always taught that one of the main principles of science is that nothing is for free.

If you want energy, you will always have to pay for it, somewhere along the line.  This is why there can be no such thing as a perpetual motion engine.

In fact Langford Jillings built a diesel/electric cruiser about 20 years ago, based on the principle of a mobile crane that he had been following to work in his car!  He was that kind of innovator.  In fact it did not succeed, as the power for the electric motor had to be provided by a Perkins 4108 diesel generator.

Nanni produces hybrid drive trains and has for a few years. At least one BA launch uses it. In the early days, it was beset with faults. I don't know what the situation is now. 

But, talking of trains, diesel passenger locomotives don't have a diesel drive train, They have a honking great big diesel generator powering electric motors. I don't pretend to understand the reasoning, just putting it out there. 

The Barnes hybrids and I think Whisper Emblem use electric motors with diesel generators. 

As I say, I am not knowledgeable enough to know whether it's more efficient to charge batteries and provide on-demand power with diesel or just have a diesel drive train but both these systems exist already. 

 

[Bikertov]

54 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

I was always taught that one of the main principles of science is that nothing is for free.

If you want energy, you will always have to pay for it, somewhere along the line.  This is why there can be no such thing as a perpetual motion engine.

In fact Langford Jillings built a diesel/electric cruiser about 20 years ago, based on the principle of a mobile crane that he had been following to work in his car!  He was that kind of innovator.  In fact it did not succeed, as the power for the electric motor had to be provided by a Perkins 4108 diesel generator.

Yes, you are right: power in = power out (remembering that power out also includes various losses in the system)

So the question is down to efficiency.

A mechanical / hydraulic power train has losses, which may well be greater than the losses in an electrical motor based drive system.

If the (diesel) generator motor can run at an optimum and efficient speed, it may well be more efficient than revving from low to high depending on the propulsion speed required.

[Bikertov]

3 minutes ago, Oddfellow said:

But, talking of trains, diesel passenger locomotives don't have a diesel drive train, They have a honking great big diesel generator powering electric motors. I don't pretend to understand the reasoning, just putting it out there. 
 

 

I did mention "diesel electric"

I believe it is because you run the engine at an optimum speed to generate electricity (direct or via a battery pack).

No gearbox is then required as the electric motor can vary its speed, well, electrically. So you also then save the weight and space of a heavy gearbox and drivetrain.

[Smoggy]

I'm pretty sure the diesel/electric train idea was down to transmission practicalities rather than efficiency, a diesel of the power output required has a limited rev range and going through gears is not that good a system on a train with the amount of weight involved, an old steam setup had huge torque right from the start so didn't need gears much like an electric motor.

I thought the idea of self charging hybrid cars was they run clean in a city and do the stinking on the motorway to make the city air cleaner, not really relevant on the rivers.

The setup for inland/sea boats sounds far more sensible though as big marine engines tend to smoke like mad idling along rivers (mine does, clears as soon as the throttles open and the turbos do some work) and it does them no good.

[rightsaidfred]

31 minutes ago, Oddfellow said:

Nanni produces hybrid drive trains and has for a few years. At least one BA launch uses it. In the early days, it was beset with faults. I don't know what the situation is now. 

But, talking of trains, diesel passenger locomotives don't have a diesel drive train, They have a honking great big diesel generator powering electric motors. I don't pretend to understand the reasoning, just putting it out there. 

The Barnes hybrids and I think Whisper Emblem use electric motors with diesel generators. 

As I say, I am not knowledgeable enough to know whether it's more efficient to charge batteries and provide on-demand power with diesel or just have a diesel drive train but both these systems exist already. 

 

Only had a quick check so I could be wrong but it seems that both Barnes and Ferry marina having dabbled in hybrid and all electric have now reverted to diesel on their new builds.

Fred

[ExSurveyor]

I suspect boating will be ignored, along with construction plant and farming machinery, the cost of going electric, combined with the relative limited numbers and the difficulty with supplying electricity, will make it impractical. The big carbon savings is cars, the rest pale into insignificance.

All these studies are just box ticking, the car and housing are where the cost benefit savings are. That is where the money will be focused.

[TheQ]

5 minutes ago, psychicsurveyor said:

I suspect boating will be ignored, along with construction plant and farming machinery, the cost of going electric, combined with the relative limited numbers and the difficulty with supplying electricity, will make it impractical. The big carbon savings is cars, the rest pale into insignificance.

All these studies are just box ticking, the car and housing are where the cost benefit savings are. That is where the money will be focused.

Lorries, lorries / buses / delivery vans as well.

The most polluted roads in Norwich are where the buses run, particularly round the bottom of the castle where cars do not run..

[Vaughan]

15 minutes ago, rightsaidfred said:

Only had a quick check so I could be wrong but it seems that both Barnes and Ferry marina having dabbled in hybrid and all electric have now reverted to diesel on their new builds.

Very interesting. Why am I not surprised?

 

55 minutes ago, Bikertov said:

The electric motors turned into generators when on diesel power, to recharge the batteries.

Nothing new about that either!  In the late 40s and 50s, marine engines such as Stuart Turner had a "Dyna-Start" which was a starter motor on a belt to the flywheel.  Once the engine started, it reversed polarity and became a dynamo, for battery charging. I remember them well and very efficient, they were!

[Bikertov]

What make me laugh the most is the military talking about going green/electric ...

Firstly, for an 'industry' who's job in many circumstances involves destroying things (no offence meant - I am pro the Armed Forces), this is quite ironic.

Secondly, can you imagine our shiny new electric tanks etc on the battlefield, running our of charge ?

"Sorry Mr. Enemy, can we just take a quick break old boy - my tank seems to have run of of electricity. Can I just get a recharge before I start bombarding you again. Awfully good of you chaps to agree ... "

And @grendel - I can't quite see you and your colleagues sorting out and installing a charging infrastructure in remote hostile territory whilst under fire !

[grendel]

nope send in the big diesel charging truck and its generator.

[TheQ]

[Bikertov]

8 minutes ago, grendel said:

nope send in the big diesel charging truck and its generator.

You could always put some heavy armour on that, and then a dirty great gun on top.

We could call it a 'tank' 

[RS2021]

1 hour ago, rightsaidfred said:

Only had a quick check so I could be wrong but it seems that both Barnes and Ferry marina having dabbled in hybrid and all electric have now reverted to diesel on their new builds.

Fred

NBD used to advertise Fair Princess as hybrid.

[Vaughan]

35 minutes ago, Bikertov said:

And @grendel - I can't quite see you and your colleagues sorting out and installing a charging infrastructure in remote hostile territory whilst under fire !

Excuse me, but that is not fair comment and best to leave our armed forces out of this, I think.

If they couldn't install things in hostile territory while under fire, they never would have won D-Day.

[rightsaidfred]

4 minutes ago, RS2021 said:

NBD used to advertise Fair Princess as hybrid.

They still do as do Barnes with theirs and Ferrys all electric with generators!!, I am referring to the new builds since those were built.

Fred.

[RS2021]

14 minutes ago, rightsaidfred said:

They still do

I think she was updated a couple of years ago and since then they seem to have dropped hybrid from the descriptions. I don't know if she was re-engined at the time, or they don't see any benefit in marketing terms.