How Much Diesel Use

[andyg]

At the end of the day if an individual is happy to pay then its there choice I guess. I've hired before from ferry and will again next year. I do quite a few hours cruising each day and use a fair bit of fuel. I like the idea of just getting off the boat jumping in my car and going. So with everything in this world today we pay a premium for convenience. 

[Coryton]

1 hour ago, andyg said:

At the end of the day if an individual is happy to pay then its there choice I guess. I've hired before from ferry and will again next year. I do quite a few hours cruising each day and use a fair bit of fuel. I like the idea of just getting off the boat jumping in my car and going. So with everything in this world today we pay a premium for convenience. 

I was surprised when I first hired that fuel wasn't included. I don't know why - I wouldn't expect to have unlimited petrol included with a hire car. I suppose it's because when I rent a cottage I expect the price to include everything (though now I come to think of it, we were handed an electricity bill after a week in a cottage in Ireland as well as paying for fuel we'd used for the day boat that came with the cottage).

[Vaughan]

There is another aspect to this : insurance companies work because the premium paid by all customers covers the claims made by just a few of them.  Hence the no-claim bonus.  If only a few people paid the damage waiver it would not cover the yards repair costs, so they have to encourage the most possible, to pay it or it won't work.  This is undoubtedly why their marketing has come to make it seem as though you have to pay it.

Insurance companies however, are heavily regulated by their profession, to ensure that premiums are set at a level which does not make excessive profits.

I think you can guess what's coming next!  Boatyards leave themselves open to the accusation of making excess profit from un-regulated, illegal insurance.  This happened in the early days of the waiver, when I was on the board of Blakes and again years later, when I was on the board of Crown Blue Line in France.  On both occasions we were faced with government intervention, but were able to defend ourselves because it was an option, and not lumped in as part of the hire price.

I repeat that charging a damage waiver is potentially dodgy, and so is an "all inclusive" package.  If you like the idea and are happy to pay these, that is your customer choice and preference but unless they have changed the rules since I retired, you cannot be obliged to do so.

Remember all the legal fuss a few years ago about "mis-sold P.P.I"?  It's the same thing.

[Oddfellow]

17 hours ago, DAVIDH said:

It clearly isn't a universal insurance policy for anyone booking through Hoseasons, as it varies depending on which boatyard you book through. It also irks me that a "non refundable damage waiver" is not included in the overall hire cost, as you are unable to avoid paying it. 

Operators of overseas holiday were compelled by law to include all non-discretionary items in the overall cost many years ago, which stopped adverts for £xxx plus taxes etc. I know fuel is different, as it's dependent on how much you use, but not adding the Damage Waiver is just wrong. It confuses the customer, which I think is what NBD are actually trying to avoid, with their All Inclusive rates. 

 This is exactly why Freedom never showed such costs. The damage waiver (and fuel deposit) was built into the cost calculation of the boat when any prices were calculated. The process of costing a COMPULSORY charge out and then adding it later after you've been attracted by a HEADLINE price is, in my view, utterly dishonest.  

We did it the other way: here's the total price and your fuel deposit is payable on arrival and a refund given (if appropriate) before you return home. This made the cost of the holiday on the web site cheaper in that the figure you were presented with at booking had the fuel deposit taken off the initial charges as it was payable on arrival. 

 

17 hours ago, Coryton said:

Either in the case of my booking it's not as simple as that, or Hoseasons are being downright deceitful in referring to the damage waiver as insurance underwritten by a real insurance company (Allianz). 

I would be VERY surprised at this. I think you may be confusing this with cancellation insurance. 

[Vaughan]

9 minutes ago, Oddfellow said:

I would be VERY surprised at this. I think you may be confusing this with cancellation insurance. 

Hear, hear!

[Coryton]

4 minutes ago, Oddfellow said:

 I would be VERY surprised at this. I think you may be confusing this with cancellation insurance. 

I have not (knowingly) paid for cancellation insurance.

1 hour ago, Vaughan said:

There is another aspect to this : insurance companies work because the premium paid by all customers covers the claims made by just a few of them.  Hence the no-claim bonus.  If only a few people paid the damage waiver it would not cover the yards repair costs, so they have to encourage the most possible, to pay it or it won't work.

I don't follow that - if the alternative to paying the damage waiver is leaving a deposit and losing it if necessary, then unless the deposit is set at the wrong level don't the costs work out the same if everyone takes the waiver, everyone pays the deposit, or something in between?

 

[Vaughan]

1 minute ago, Coryton said:

I don't follow that - if the alternative to paying the damage waiver is leaving a deposit and losing it if necessary, then unless the deposit is set at the wrong level don't the costs work out the same if everyone takes the waiver, everyone pays the deposit, or something in between?

I think perhaps, reading your other posts, you may not have realised that it is the yard that insures the boat - not you.

That of course, is included in the hire price!   Like all insurance, it has an excess, for which you are responsible.  The security deposit - refundable - is designed to cover the excess if you do damage up to that amount.  If you do more damage than that, you are covered by the yard's insurance.

The damage waiver is designed to indemnify you from having to pay the excess, but it is not refundable. So it risks being considered as a private insurance of its own, if not marketed carefully.

[Coryton]

4 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

I think perhaps, reading your other posts, you may not have realised that it is the yard that insures the boat - not you.

That of course, is included in the hire price!   Like all insurance, it has an excess, for which you are responsible.  The security deposit - refundable - is designed to cover the excess if you do damage up to that amount.  If you do more damage than that, you are covered by the yard's insurance.

The damage waiver is designed to indemnify you from having to pay the excess, but it is not refundable. So it risks being considered as a private insurance of its own, if not marketed carefully.

I thought I understood the situation, as you described it as above (and the exclusions to what are covered by the waiver (gross negligance, intentional damage, whatever) presumably mirror the terms in the boat yard's insurance.

Although I could imagine that a yard might be large enough either to self-insure entirely or to take out insurance with a huge excess - effectively buying re-insurance.

But then I got the invoice with the wording I showed above, which is either extremely badly worded or suggesting that the damage waiver is in itself insurance. I appreciate I'm not buying insurance for the boat - it looks from the wording as if I've been sold my own insurance policy to cover the excess in the boat yard's insurance. Hence my confusion.

 

 

[Vaughan]

12 minutes ago, Coryton said:

it looks from the wording as if I've been sold my own insurance policy to cover the excess in the boat yard's insurance. Hence my confusion.

And hence why I say it is potentially dodgy!

I must say I didn't realise that this had got to the point where customers now believe that they have to pay the waiver, so they would rather see it included.

As I said earlier, if this ever got to a court case, I wouldn't like to predict the outcome.

[Oddfellow]

I think Hoseasons is playing a dodgy game in the extreme here. The damage waiver is NOT an extra as there's no mechanism for not paying it. 

The last Broads hire company I was aware of that actively offered an option of deposit or waiver was Le Boat and they left the area almost a decade ago now. 

[DAVIDH]

29 minutes ago, Oddfellow said:

I think Hoseasons is playing a dodgy game in the extreme here. The damage waiver is NOT an extra as there's no mechanism for not paying it. 

Just for balance, not just Hoseasons. Richardsons are "marginally" more compliant as they mention the two DW options in their booking conditions - which I say again, most people will not look at. However, they do not offer the option to change over to a cash deposit at the booking stage, so in the main, the customer will not know it exists. In fairness, Richardsons do show an all inclusive price on their availability listing page. I had a look at Barnes Brinkcraft, but couldn't make head not tail of it as the website doesn't seem to work very well (for me?) I'm confused by the obfuscation. What chance does a customer have?

[Meantime]

23 minutes ago, Oddfellow said:

I think Hoseasons is playing a dodgy game in the extreme here. The damage waiver is NOT an extra as there's no mechanism for not paying it. 

The last Broads hire company I was aware of that actively offered an option of deposit or waiver was Le Boat and they left the area almost a decade ago now. 

The current terms of hire on the Richardsons website actually has three types of deposit!

1. The good old fashioned Damage Waiver Scheme. It does say there will be an additional fuel deposit as well to pay. The waiver is non returnable.

2. Fuel and Security Deposit Scheme where you will loose some or all of your deposit based upon any damage caused, but limited to the cost of the deposit which is £300. Slightly confusing because it says if you cause damage in excess of £300 you will not be asked to pay anymore, but you will be charged for any fuel used. So although you have paid a fuel deposit, effectively if you cause damage there may be nothing in the pot to actually pay for fuel used and you may still receive the bill for fuel.

3. Additional Deposit Group and Party Booking All male, female or young crews will be asked for a security deposit of £50pp on arrival at the boatyard. Presumably declaring yourself as binary or gender neutral should exempt you from that one? 

[Vaughan]

30 minutes ago, DAVIDH said:

 

Yes it is mis-leading but it is still not an invoice.  It is a guide price for your holiday, taken off a website.  When you make the booking, you can opt to remove the waver and pay a deposit.

I know that is true, folks!   I have done it myself, on a Richardson's holiday.

I admit that the very nice lady on the phone had to go and ask a supervisor, to find out how to do it!

[annv]

Hi Vaughan Is there such a thing as far wear and tear if no damage waver taken out i was thinking a scrap on bows from wooden quay heading, just a thought otherwise why not include it as a all inclusive hire fee. John Oh and did you see that tv program last night on Brits living in France? Any thoughts you might like to make. John

[Vaughan]

Hello John,

I think this is the sort of thing I was saying earlier about making a good impression on the customer, and I am sure most yards would not do that.  If the last thing you remember about your Broads holiday, is being stung for twenty quid for a mark on the hull, you are not going to come and book again for next year!

[Vaughan]

22 hours ago, Oddfellow said:

I think Hoseasons is playing a dodgy game in the extreme here. The damage waiver is NOT an extra as there's no mechanism for not paying it. 

I have only just "liked" Andy's post as I have only just got the point!

I made a direct booking with Richardsons, so I demanded the deposit option from them.

Hoseasons, as a travel agent, cannot legally hold a security deposit, so they are just insisting on the waiver.  And maybe charging sales commission on it?

Meantime the customer has no choice and that is illegal.

[Oddfellow]

17 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

I have only just "liked" Andy's post as I have only just got the point!

I made a direct booking with Richardsons, so I demanded the deposit option from them.

Hoseasons, as a travel agent, cannot legally hold a security deposit, so they are just insisting on the waiver.  And maybe charging sales commission on it?

Meantime the customer has no choice and that is illegal.

I am pretty certain that Hoseasons will be charging a commission on the damage waiver if it's taking the money for it. 

 

[Vaughan]

It's all coming back now!  I remember that Blakes, even though it was owned by its members, could not hold security deposits, so the choice of deposit or waiver was always an "option on arrival" at the boatyard.

Many here would like to see an all inclusive price but maybe they can also see why "extras on arrival" is actually the fairest way of doing business.

By the way, the last time I hired a car from Enterprise, on the phone, I was offered the option of a damage waiver or deposit.  Enterprise were the only major hirer (including Europcar!) that would hire me a car in England on a French driving licence.  That was well before Brexit, and Enterprise now always have my business, even in France.  And I always choose the deposit option!

 

[BroadAmbition]

Diesel Consumption during Lads Week,

Potter Heigham to Acle, then to Reedham,  Loddon,  Beauchamp arms (Via Reedham),  Thorpe Green,  Norwich,  Rockland staithe,  Stokesby,  Fleet Dyke,  Horning (Via Ranworth without stopping),  Wroxham,  Ranworth,  Acle, Potter Heigham.

'B.A' had the added transit of Stalham to Potter Heigham on Friday 08th then back to Stalham from Acle Sat 16th 

J2 towed a sailing dinghy all week

J3 didn't go to Loddon and back but from Reedham directly to Beauchamp Arms

Heating onboard will have differed slightly between each boat,  'B.A' normally uses the heater less due to her being a bio degradable therefore warmer internally than the Tupperwares

'B.A' - 95 x Ltrs

J2 - 122 x Ltrs

J3 - 113 x Ltrs

Herbert Woods currently charging £1:45 per Litre

Griff

[CeePee1952]

29 minutes ago, BroadAmbition said:

 

Herbert Woods currently charging £1:45 per Litre

Griff

Interesting to note that HW haven't put their price up since the beginning of September, that's the price we were charged as well.

Chris

[rightsaidfred]

3 minutes ago, CeePee1952 said:

Interesting to note that HW haven't put their price up since the beginning of September, that's the price we were charged as well.

Chris

That's some markup Boulters was £1.05 when I topped up in September

Fred

[Meantime]

That's some diesel usage!!!  Whilst I'm sure there was no speeding involved, I would imagine a lot of cruising was done at close to the speed limits? with the consequent penalty in fuel usage.

I estimated that the above journey would have cost me about 55 litres with some limited heater usage.

I worked it out as follows,

The Bure to Wroxham bridge is 26 miles x 2 = 52

The Yare and Wensum to the yacht station is 27 miles x 2 = 54

The Thurne to Potter bridge is 3 miles x 2 = 6

The Chet is 3.5 miles long x 2 = 7

I guessed at Fleet Dyke and a cruise around the inner Broad = 10 miles

The detour into Ranworth and back 3 miles

The detour into Rockland staithe = 4 miles

For a total of 136 miles.

At this time of year my boat would do about 2.5 miles to the litre with limited heater running, so 135 divided by 2.5 is 54.4 miles.

At my last fill up in September I'd done 183.5 miles since the previous fill up, which hadn't been brimmed to the top, and got 72 litres in giving 2.55 miles to the litre. It would have been a shade better if the tank had of been completely full on the previous fill up. I normally work on 2.6 - 2.7 for Summer running. Winter running is more like 1.9 - 2.1 due to heater usage.

[BroadAmbition]

That's some diesel usage!!!  Whilst I'm sure there was no speeding involved, I would imagine a lot of cruising was done at close to the speed limits? with the consequent penalty in fuel usage.

Correct.  The Navplan sometimes meant cruising against tide plus by having to alter the Navplan that put the transit from GYA up to Stokesby against a strong ebb tide.  'B.A' reported engine revs set for 6mph and achieving just 2mph over ground under the bridges

Plus where the Lads Week is concerned, diesel consumption does not really concern us.  If we use 25 x Ltrs over and above at £1:45 per Litre, that means each crew member is down £1:61 over the whole eight days, that much? Really?

Griff

[Jbx5]

Boulters was up to £1.14 last week when I brimmed the fuel tank (100lts first fuel put in all year 150hp Yanmar, our  boat not used enough ! ) 

John

[CambridgeCabby]

It was £1:10 a couple of weeks ago at Boulters when we filled up , so much easier on the wallet to brim a fuel tank that holds 173 litres as opposed to in excess of 400 litres we had in Cerise Lady