So What Is Going On At Herbert Woods

[Tobster]

From what I’ve seen, most of the newer Barns Brinkcraft fleet are really set up for this, with various different systems, ie solar panels,  double alternators, battery monitoring and generators and don’t they have a battery meter on there dashboards.

So I guess it can be done, but may not be cost affective on some of the older boats in the various fleets.

[andyg]

36 minutes ago, FlyingFortress said:

You can charge a shot battery for as long as you like. It will never recover.

I may also ask what are they doing to the ones that don't have shore power connections.

The same as all the other yards do I'd imagine, run the engines 😉

[andyg]

1 minute ago, Tobster said:

From what I’ve seen, most of the newer Barns Brinkcraft fleet are really set up for this, with various different systems, ie solar panels,  double alternators, battery monitoring and generators and don’t they have a battery meter on there dashboards.

So I guess it can be done, but may not be cost affective on some of the older boats in the various fleets.

The amount of technology barnes put into there new builds is quite forward thinking. I'd be shocked if any of them suffered with battery issues. Most definitely not financially viable for an older boat unless you intend to completely gut the shell and rebuild it I would think. 

[FlyingFortress]

48 minutes ago, andyg said:

The same as all the other yards do I'd imagine, run the engines 😉

But what does that achieve If the batteries are shot to start with?

 

[floydraser]

On 04/04/2022 at 10:38, CeePee1952 said:

That's where we went wrong  we used to play tiddly winks but the games never lasted long as most of the counters got pinged into the river!! 

Chris

 

On 04/04/2022 at 08:44, JanetAnne said:

I remember the days when all we took was a pack of cards and a game of ludo

Did anyone ever think of trying a hoop and stick on the Broads? Just asking.... 

[FlyingFortress]

50 minutes ago, Tobster said:

From what I’ve seen, most of the newer Barns Brinkcraft fleet are really set up for this, with various different systems, ie solar panels,  double alternators, battery monitoring and generators and don’t they have a battery meter on there dashboards.

So I guess it can be done, but may not be cost affective on some of the older boats in the various fleets.

Not only newer boats.

Some older ones were quite innovative incorporating 24v systems. I am not knowledgeable enough to give sufficient description of the benefits but I do know a man who can.

The only downside with a lot of Barnes innovation is the all electric boats that you need a generator on to boil a kettle.

I got to handle one of their hybrid boats a couple of years ago and was pleasantly surprised just how good it was. I only turned it around in a tight space just helping out the helm. Totally silent until I gave a bit of throttle to induce sternway when the generator started. Before this I have always labelled hybrid boats as a sap to the green lobby but I must say if I was having a boat built from scratch I would seriously look at a hybrid. I will add with gas bottles so I don't have to start a generator to make a cup of tea.

[Oddfellow]

22 hours ago, FlyingFortress said:

I did wonder if that may be a solution but as I am not really that up on charging systems I didn't want to suggest it.

Between you and Meantime you make some very valid points.

Adding bigger alternators is not always practical or possible. A spinning alternator provides some resistance and you can only go so far before a singe-v belt won't cope. Most smaller marine engines, though, cannot use multi-v belts as their pullies are single-v. This poses an immediate problem in that you simply can't drive a bigger alternator. There are probably solutions around, but in my experience, not many and they are expensive. There's a similar problem to dual alternators and this can be even more of an issue as you need both space to mount the unit AND available bracketry to fit it AND, very likely, double pullies on the engine to drive it as you really don't want one single V belt being responsible for two alternators and engine cooling. 

The facts of the matter are that a good 70amp alternator can handle a bank of 5 batteries quite well if those batteries are in good condition and properly treated with the requisite 4 hours of cruising done each day: just running the engine at idle is not good enough and it's bad for the engine too.

The problem is that too few hirers have an appreciation for the limitations of the system and the solution to that is education rather than throwing more gear into a boat that you then need to burn more fossil fuels to operate. 

 

[FlyingFortress]

Don't really want to quote the whole post but the last paragraph hits the nail on the head.

[FlyingFortress]

The rest of your post was equally informative.

[oldgregg]

14 minutes ago, Oddfellow said:

The problem is that too few hirers have an appreciation for the limitations of the system and the solution to that is education rather than throwing more gear into a boat that you then need to burn more fossil fuels to operate. 

But a decent percentage of people aren't going to listen, care or understand.

This is why as engineers we have to take the problem out of the hands of the user and provide a solution which keeps things running even if they're doing a couple of hours cruising per day.

If an engineer doesn't have to jump into the transit and bring a sack barrow full of batteries then I'd say that it reduces fuel usage overall?

Hybrid powertrains are more expensive, but buying a set of AGM batteries each year is too. Been there, got the T shirt.

[FlyingFortress]

I think part of the solution has to be either

1) manage expectations of the potential customer.

Or 

2) throw loads of tech at the boat.

When I bought my current boat it was the first boat I had owned fitted with an inverter and a fairly meaty one at that 1800w continuous. The availability of shore hook ups was much more limited then and shore power was not available on my home mooring (this was over 18 years ago). A solution needed to be found as 4+ hours of engine running every day was simply not going to happen except on very rare days ie North South transit. A wind turbine was too intrusive so I fitted Solar Panels with a good management system. Eureka problem solved.

This proved to be an excellent solution until the availability of shore hook ups became more extensive and shore power available on my home mooring. Further investment was then made in a complete 240v system throughout along with an intelligent battery charger.

Yes this did cost me a good chunk of money but I know I have some batteries in my boat that are over 10 years old.

My point is initial investment has probably saved me a packet in the long term and I don't ever worry about power issues

 

 

 

[FlyingFortress]

AGM batteries? A term I cannot recall.

Other than that once again great post from someone on the front line.

 

[Oddfellow]

21 minutes ago, oldgregg said:

But a decent percentage of people aren't going to listen, care or understand.

This is why as engineers we have to take the problem out of the hands of the user and provide a solution which keeps things running even if they're doing a couple of hours cruising per day.

If an engineer doesn't have to jump into the transit and bring a sack barrow full of batteries then I'd say that it reduces fuel usage overall?

Hybrid powertrains are more expensive, but buying a set of AGM batteries each year is too. Been there, got the T shirt.

You would be surprised. We had very few power issues at Freedom once we had properly educated the customer base on what to expect. 

Most people care that they have an uninterrupted holiday more than watching TV 24/7, they really do.

[Oddfellow]

6 minutes ago, FlyingFortress said:

AGM batteries? A term I cannot recall.

Other than that once again great post from someone on the front line.

 

Absorbent Glass Matt - a sealed lead acid tech that is a significant improvement on standard plate cells. More expensive and requires a controlled charging sequence but with better output potential. Naturally, at least 1/2 as expensive again as a SLA. 

[FlyingFortress]

7 minutes ago, Oddfellow said:

Absorbent Glass Matt - a sealed lead acid tech that is a significant improvement on standard plate cells. More expensive and requires a controlled charging sequence but with better output potential. Naturally, at least 1/2 as expensive again as a SLA. 

Thanks 👍

[annv]

Hi That's why yards use lead acid as they are the most cost effective,  they do need a certain amount of maintance ie topping up the with distilled water but with engineers on site , Advanced regulators can be fitted to any boat at little cost, they only require wiring alterations and will halve the the engine running time to  recharge the battery's saving fuel, wear and pollution. John

[Andrewcook]

Hi Shore Power on most Newer boats helps in two ways One it stops the engine running when moored up and the other pollution and also stops murdering the Batteries, 

[annv]

The only problem with shore power is when the hires drives of without unplugging and causes damage as has happened twice at Horning this year already. Hire boats need a tug release connector if they are to have shore power cable provided. John

[FlyingFortress]

So all this talk about batteries I thought I had better check my own.

3x domestic plus one engine start battery.

Each individually disconnected, drop tested,6x covers each on the 2 that are not sealed removed, level checked,12 covers replaced,4 batteries re connected and tools put away.

Probably 10 mins max 15.

Not too hard for an engineer to do prior to sending a boat out on hire

Took me longer to type this post ..,. possibly 😁

[BroadAmbition]

Our solution onboard 'B.A' was to chuck knowledge, experience and some funds at her - It worked too.

Firstly a second alternator of 100amp to supplement the standard 65amp item supplied as standard - easily done as Beta supplied the brackets second pulley with the wide flat belt, it all arrived made up and ready to go.  Next was a domestic battery bank of eight units 120amp each, Separate cranking battery, two large solar panels run through a smart mppt thingy, Sterling 240v shore power charger, shore power, Sterling spit charge clever box,  1800w inverter.

The most important item? - An understanding of the limitations onboard when not hooked up to shore power - It works, works very well too even if I do admit it mysen

Griff

[Vaughan]

9 minutes ago, FlyingFortress said:

Not too hard for an engineer to do prior to sending a boat out on hire

On a yard such as HW with a fleet of a hundred and more?   I forget, you did say you know nothing about boatyards.

But why, in that case, do you continue to "throw stones"?   By the way your post sounds as though you are mixing different types of batteries on the same bank, which is certainly not recommended, especially if using an intelligent regulator or intelligent charge splitter.  I point this out in the spirit of helpful advice.

[FlyingFortress]

Sounds similar to my set up Griff except that I think I have a standard sized alternator.

Yup works well does it not 

[FlyingFortress]

Thank you for your helpful advice about the different batteries Vaughan.

May I now ask about your inspection routines for vessels going on hire.

Does anyone inspect the boats and have to declare them fit for purpose.

Does this happen at every change over,once a week,month or year.

Is there any form of function test on any of the on board equipment such as CO detector, heating, flame outs for cookers etc?

I only ask as Griff and BA had an issue with a flame out device IIRC. Not a problem with an experienced crew such as BA but could be serious for inexperienced hire crew.

Or indeed the freezing crew on the HW boat

[grendel]

my research indicated (and i admitted my error too) that drop testing was fine for starter batteries, but for the deeper cycle leisure battery was a pointless exercise, as it would not indicate the battery condition, the test needed being a longer 20 hour discharge test (your deep cycle battery might pass a drop test of a high current over a short time, but if it doesnt store and let out the charge over a longer time could be next to useless for purpose), the reason for this being if there is a poor connection internally, the high current of the drop test will short through the fault, and present a good battery, whereas a lower current draw might not, leading to volt loss and possibly not charging when connected to the charger, a starter battery is always operating at that high current so such issues might not be apparent as much, but all the literature I found out there said for the Domestic bank that drop charging was pointless, and a slow discharge test was the viable option.

[FlyingFortress]

11 minutes ago, grendel said:

my research indicated (and i admitted my error too) that drop testing was fine for starter batteries, but for the deeper cycle leisure battery was a pointless exercise, as it would not indicate the battery condition, the test needed being a longer 20 hour discharge test (your deep cycle battery might pass a drop test of a high current over a short time, but if it doesnt store and let out the charge over a longer time could be next to useless for purpose), the reason for this being if there is a poor connection internally, the high current of the drop test will short through the fault, and present a good battery, whereas a lower current draw might not, leading to volt loss and possibly not charging when connected to the charger, a starter battery is always operating at that high current so such issues might not be apparent as much, but all the literature I found out there said for the Domestic bank that drop charging was pointless, and a slow discharge test was the viable option.

Thank you for that Grendal 👍

I did forget to mention checking the SG in each of my open cells and no distilled water was required.

Like I said in an earlier post 2 of my batteries are over 10 years old so I think I will stick with my maintenance routines that have served me well for the 30 years I have owned boats.