Breydon Water Catches People Out Again!

[Meantime]

12 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

Good grief.

How have we ever managed, without all this "risk based management", for the last 100 years in Broads boat hiring?

I asked this question on page one of this thread and I ask it again here : How many people have been killed or injured as a result of grounding on Breydon?

In living memory?

Let me ask you a question Vaughan. Wind the clock back say 20 years and how many people were rescued by the RNLI or helicopter each year? I wonder how the costs of rescues for say 1990-2000 would compare to 2010-2020.

Back then a lot less people had mobile phones on them. Now days everyone has a mobile phone and the authorities are far more likely to be alerted to a grounding than 20 or 30 years ago. Once they have been alerted a duty of care starts which is more and more often resulting in very expensive rescue operations. Lets not forget whilst the helicopter was airlifting people of Breydon, it wasn't available for other duties.

So it is good news that none, if any people have been injured or killed as a result of grounding on Breydon, but times move on, rescues become more expensive and that costs time and money.

If simple measures can be taken to help reduce the number of groundings, then quite simply why wouldn't you?

[ChrisB]

The EA "Buoy-Off" lock weirs which is a must on some rivers. But a simple grounding and waiting for the tide is not of the same magnitude as a boat going over a weir.

Lord I can't count how many times I have got it wrong in Poole harbour and Chichester and had to sit it out.

 

[Vaughan]

1 minute ago, Meantime said:

If simple measures can be taken to help reduce the number of groundings, then quite simply why wouldn't you?

Do you really think we don't take those measures?  I really get rather tired of these armchair forum suggestions that we just cast people off and wish them a happy holiday.  If you knew what it was really like to be responsible for people's safety on a boatyard, or how many sleepless nights are involved . . . . .

All right, let's look at it another way. How many times did volunteer rescue services get called out to the Breydon flats last year? Compared to the number of boats that crossed there safely?

 

6 minutes ago, Meantime said:

Once they have been alerted a duty of care starts which is more and more often resulting in very expensive rescue operations.

 I am afraid our modern risk averse society will not be changed by filling in another form on the hire boat trial run.

[Meantime]

1 minute ago, Vaughan said:

 I really get rather tired of these armchair forum suggestions that we just cast people off and wish them a happy holiday.

To be fair I get rather tired of people putting words in my mouth. At no time did I say that, but I will point out that we are all entitled to our point of view and to take part in a reasoned debate.

My main issue is with the current lack of posts in an area known to be confusing, which have been replaced with rather confusing buoys, but that doesn't mean that other things couldn't be looked at.

[FlyingFortress]

49 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

Good grief.

How have we ever managed, without all this "risk based management", for the last 100 years in Broads boat hiring?

I asked this question on page one of this thread and I ask it again here : How many people have been killed or injured as a result of grounding on Breydon?

In living memory?

Yes I agree.

You do wonder how all these wonderful old boatyards survived.

[grendel]

52 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

How have we ever managed, without all this "risk based management", for the last 100 years in Broads boat hiring?

I think you will find in those days it was called common sense, its just the habit of giving things fancy names thats new.

[FlyingFortress]

6 minutes ago, grendel said:

I think you will find in those days it was called common sense, its just the habit of giving things fancy names thats new.

When I first started in the marine industry in 1978 we had a QM ( Quality Management) system well established. 

Hardly New 

That was an Oil Major though.

 

 

[grendel]

still 1978 was about the time these new fangled ideas were being introduced, i was talking about 100 years.

[Meantime]

7 minutes ago, grendel said:

still 1978 was about the time these new fangled ideas were being introduced, i was talking about 100 years.

100 years ago, well almost, 1924 a helicopter flew 1 kilometer for the first time. I guess without the safety net of helicopters and mobile phones the mind was a little more focused on being responsible for your own safety rather than relying on others. Now that we have those rather expensive resources it makes sense to put systems in place that mean they are used as infrequently as possible.

[FlyingFortress]

19 minutes ago, grendel said:

still 1978 was about the time these new fangled ideas were being introduced, i was talking about 100 years.

Suppose you have a point.

Without checking I don't think such a thing as an Oil Tanker existed 100 years before 1978

Little risk of a major oil spill then so no requirement for a risk assessment

 

[grendel]

in most industry in 1978 health and safety was just nodded to, I can remember the air pistol shooting we did in the office at my first job, (we stopped when a pellet went through the wall into the next office). when I think back to the things we got up to at work in those days I cringe now.

[FlyingFortress]

15 minutes ago, grendel said:

in most industry in 1978 health and safety was just nodded to, I can remember the air pistol shooting we did in the office at my first job, (we stopped when a pellet went through the wall into the next office). when I think back to the things we got up to at work in those days I cringe now.

Good old days eh.

A drunk fork lift driver putting his forks through the side of a ship almost killing one of my Seaman. Life changing injurious is the current expression.

Trying to convince dockers that I really needed my cargo loaded in a certain way as it was me taking this ship to sea in a Force 10.

The death rate in the offshore industry was horrendous when you take into account the limited numbers of people doing it was at the time statistically the highest fatality rate of any industry.

The good old days.

Oh how we laughed.

Except those Mother's,Wives and Children of those who returned in a box if at all.

Given good old elf an safety and Safety Management Systems fatalities are now the exception rather than the norm.

But we can all laugh with the rose tinted glasses on. 

So I politely request that no one lecture me on responsibility for people's lives.

[grendel]

I currently work in an industry that works alongside construction, historically the construction site has been considered one of the most dangerous to work in, and yet though it is still dangerous, the procedures put in place have taken it away from the number one spot as most dangerous, which i believe currently is window cleaning of all things.

I too am grateful for the turn of events that has made health and safety the number one priority, and quite rightly so.

when I started in this industry we would get notifications of deaths and lessons learned, nowadays I see notifications that are merely near misses or warnngs of bad installations,

while deaths in my industry still happen, they are now a lot fewer and further between, thank goodness

[Vaughan]

1 hour ago, FlyingFortress said:

So I politely request that no one lecture me on responsibility for people's lives.

And I politely ask just the same.

[YnysMon]

My Dad was killed in an accident at work when I was 8 months in 1961, and Graham's 18 year old cousin in 1978, both on the railway, so we are all for health and safety too. 

[FlyingFortress]

According to a friend who crossed Breydon this morning the boat is no longer there

[ChrisB]

2 hours ago, FlyingFortress said:

Good old days eh.

A drunk fork lift driver putting his forks through the side of a ship almost killing one of my Seaman. Life changing injurious is the current expression.

Trying to convince dockers that I really needed my cargo loaded in a certain way as it was me taking this ship to sea in a Force 10.

The death rate in the offshore industry was horrendous when you take into account the limited numbers of people doing it was at the time statistically the highest fatality rate of any industry.

The good old days.

Oh how we laughed.

Except those Mother's,Wives and Children of those who returned in a box if at all.

Given good old elf an safety and Safety Management Systems fatalities are now the exception rather than the norm.

But we can all laugh with the rose tinted glasses on. 

So I politely request that no one lecture me on responsibility for people's lives.

 

1 hour ago, YnysMon said:

My Dad was killed in an accident at work when I was 8 months in 1961, and Graham's 18 year old cousin in 1978, both on the railway, so we are all for health and safety too. 

I too am all for health and safety. The number of deaths in construction, the industry my family was involved with was a disgrace. As late as the sixties in the hundreds.

The HASAWA 1974 was the real catalyst for change in Construction and indeed many other industries. Unlimited fines and imprisonment focused the mind in many boardrooms.

[Bytheriver]

Worth remembering too that a considerable amount of "Health & Safety" is driven by the Insurance Industry who often end up paying up after incidents.

If their conditions are not met it leaves the owner with the bill

 

[Cheesey69]

how about inconsistency?

A lot of the Broads you can venture outside of the markers with no trouble at all. EG, Barton Broad. Or even roam all over most Broads, Wroxham.

Suppose some may see breydon as the same and try to cut corners?

But mostly I see boats flat out, the helm not paying attention, running close to the post, sudden over correction, boat weaves around doing the classic snake pattern.

[Meantime]

8 minutes ago, Cheesey69 said:

how about inconsistency?

A lot of the Broads you can venture outside of the markers with no trouble at all. EG, Barton Broad. Or even roam all over most Broads, Wroxham.

Suppose some may see breydon as the same and try to cut corners?

Wouldn't that come under tuition though at handover. The bit where they say, whilst on some Broads it may be deep enough to go outside the markers but we suggest that you don't and that you NEVER go outside the markers on Breydon else you WILL go aground. I have seen boats aground on Barton near the wildlife sanctuary island, but I suggest there is a world of difference in running aground there and on Breydon. 

[FlyingFortress]

I would never venture outside the markers at Rockland either seeing the amount of weed that is there.

[PCL023]

Well in the industry I work in often is the case some of our competitors get their small puddle jumper’s stuck in the most awkward of place’s, so groundings in general no matter the size or shape of a vessel or the amount of technical navigation aids on board will ever stop this. Our company too has had it’s fair share of this too at times, though we try and avoid blocking the main routes. 
 

As for broads training, it could be an idea to show folks the last episode of the Coot club. Took ages to get my wife to want to venture across Breydon after watching it. 😜 Had the same issue with a Cornwall beach holiday after watching Jaws. 

Cheers 

Paul 

[grendel]

I am certain that every time I have hired in the skippers handbook there is always a separate page just for Breydon, saying stay between the red and green markers, always go around the yellow post, and that when doing the trial run, they specifically ask if you are going south, and if the answer is yes, they go into crossing Breydon in more detail.

[SwanR]

7 hours ago, Meantime said:

Perhaps it needs to be a standard part of the handover that the hirer is asked whether they want to cross Breydon or not

We have been asked that on every handover from the numerous yards we have hired from. And even if we say  no they still point out the section in our Skipper’s Manual to make sure we are aware of the necessary information should we change our minds. 

[jpd]

6 hours ago, Vaughan said:

Do you really think we don't take those measures?  I really get rather tired of these armchair forum suggestions that we just cast people off and wish them a happy holiday.  If you knew what it was really like to be responsible for people's safety on a boatyard, or how many sleepless nights are involved . . . . .

All right, let's look at it another way. How many times did volunteer rescue services get called out to the Breydon flats last year? Compared to the number of boats that crossed there safely?

 

 I am afraid our modern risk averse society will not be changed by filling in another form on the hire boat trial run.

Apologies for introducing myself in the middle of this debate . I have been reading , with interest various threads on this Forum for a while now and  I respect the fact that some of the regular contributors are clearly very knowledgeable about the Hire industry .  My experience of hand overs has been a bit as described above . 

Having not been on the Broads for a number of years in 2001 , I had a boat from Moores , asked if I was happy to go out without a trial .Then 2020 first time back for 19 years hired from Woods and asked if I was confident to go out without a trial . Both times my answer was yes , rightly or wrongly  and off I went . No mention of Breydon water .

I not sure if this is typical or not , it seems that the expectations of yard managers may not always be carried out by all staff . 

I did hire from Stalham in October last year , this was very different . I was asked of my boating experience and then told we are still going for a trial run , which I was fine by me . No mention of Breydon .