Canal Fuel

[kpnut]

I’ve just spent part of the afternoon walking the towpath of the Trent and Mersey canal near Stone in Staffs. Sorry, no photos as I didn’t have my camera. 
I parked at a most lovely marina, Aston Marina and on the way back to the car I passed the manager refuelling one of the boats. He told me the current diesel price was approx £1.20 for domestic and approx £1.59 for propulsion, (I can’t remember the exact pennies), leading to a 60:40 split of £1.32. He also said it came down 5p this week and 5p last week. 

Should we be expecting a similar drop in price (the 10p drop over the past two weeks) when our yards next have a refill of their tanks?

He sells it on a self declaration, signed form by the customer so no comeback on him. Most people say 60:40 in summer (60%propulsion) and 80:20 in winter if they go off their mooring. I realise there are far more full time residents on the canals and when the boats are out, they can moor up in one place for up to a fortnight instead of 24hrs, so probably travel less distance, but then many more have solid fuel stoves to supplant the diesel heater. 

If marinas on the canals can cope with the paperwork involved with customers’ self declarations, why can’t the yards on the Broads do the same? 

I don’t even mind the nominal 60:40 split chosen by the Broads yards, (as agreed for ease of use with HMRC), but I’m not sure we are being passed on the 40% duty free proportion. 

Is it just a case of put up with it or source if yourself and bring in a can?

Thoughts?
 

 

 

[grendel]

I generally bring a 20 litre can I fill up at asda down here for £1.82 per litre. at the very least I have it for emergencies. (or for topping up when I get back to the mooring and nowhere has any.

[oldgregg]

32 minutes ago, kpnut said:

I’ve just spent part of the afternoon walking the towpath of the Trent and Mersey canal near Stone in Staffs. Sorry, no photos as I didn’t have my camera. 
I parked at a most lovely marina, Aston Marina and on the way back to the car I passed the manager refuelling one of the boats. He told me the current diesel price was approx £1.20 for domestic and approx £1.59 for propulsion, (I can’t remember the exact pennies), leading to a 60:40 split of £1.32. He also said it came down 5p this week and 5p last week. 

Should we be expecting a similar drop in price (the 10p drop over the past two weeks) when our yards next have a refill of their tanks?

He sells it on a self declaration, signed form by the customer so no comeback on him. Most people say 60:40 in summer (60%propulsion) and 80:20 in winter if they go off their mooring. I realise there are far more full time residents on the canals and when the boats are out, they can moor up in one place for up to a fortnight instead of 24hrs, so probably travel less distance, but then many more have solid fuel stoves to supplant the diesel heater. 

If marinas on the canals can cope with the paperwork involved with customers’ self declarations, why can’t the yards on the Broads do the same? 

I don’t even mind the nominal 60:40 split chosen by the Broads yards, (as agreed for ease of use with HMRC), but I’m not sure we are being passed on the 40% duty free proportion. 

Is it just a case of put up with it or source if yourself and bring in a can?

Thoughts?
 

 

 

Nice marina that, quite a pleasant pub on site too which is handy for the visitor moorings. Last time I was there, there was a wedding on in the function building and the couple came out with the photographer who wanted to use our hireboat as a backdrop for the wedding pics.

Most yards do the 60:40 split, it's built into the price and is so common it's never really discussed.

Paperwork would be very complex to do a more sophisticated split on the Broads though? Canal boats are very similar in terms of size and engineering setup, heating source etc. Broads boats are very varied.

 

[SteveO]

All considerably less than we pay in Norfolk. I wonder how the yards justify the "Broads premium"?

 

[Smoggy]

 

1 hour ago, oldgregg said:

Paperwork would be very complex to do a more sophisticated split on the Broads though? Canal boats are very similar in terms of size and engineering setup, heating source etc. Broads boats are very varied.

Size and engineering has nowt to do with it, self declaration has always been allowed and I would imagine handing over the forms along with the duty payment would leave the checking to HMRC and as they said themselves years ago when it came in they don't have any extra resources so as long as they are getting more than they got before they don't really care, it was an EU ruling that bought it in (a ruling that didn't even allow the split) and HMRC were not about to knock back an income that was already in place when brexit happened.

But the seller has the option of just not selling it to you if you don't like how they sell it, to some it's probably there for their own fleet (or commercial quantities in the case of goodchilds) and wouldn't bother selling diesel if they didn't need a supply themselves.

Most coastal marinas only have the two rates for red, one for commercial customers and the split for us plebs, and a pump for white diesel to keep the foriegn visitors happy.

[kpnut]

4 hours ago, Smoggy said:

But the seller has the option of just not selling it to you

That’s the conclusion I’ve come to really. I keep thinking to find a can on eBay but can’t decide if I can be bothered!

I was just quite shocked by the difference in price. I’d heard it was cheaper on the canals, but that’s a big difference, more than 25%

[MargeandParge]

In fairness some yards are more competitive than others. I think that the broads season is shorter than the canal season and the regulations and insurances would be the same to stock fuel .

Hire yards will always charge top rates as they have a captured market.

We use very little compared to say a continuous cruiser and are happy to pay for the service we get from our supplier which does vary each time they refill their stock tank unlike some that seem to keep the price inflated all the time.

It takes some labour to get in and moored the yard does the filling with a smile and their time has to be compensated for in the price.

Regards Marge and Parge 

 

 

 

[oldgregg]

14 hours ago, Smoggy said:

Size and engineering has nowt to do with it

Can you imagine having to explain to every customer what they need to fill out on the declaration, how to calculate their usage and the split etc? 

[Smoggy]

I've had to fill out a slip before and it took very little time and the details were very basic, can't think where though as it was quite a while ago (possibly on the witham).

12 hours ago, kpnut said:

I keep thinking to find a can on eBay but can’t decide if I can be bothered!

I got the odd one....

The red box contains a 12v tranfer pump which saves a lot of back pain and does away with diesel splashes in the river.

[OldBerkshireBoy]

2 hours ago, MargeandParge said:

 

It takes some labour to get in and moored the yard does the filling with a smile and their time has to be compensated for in the price.

 

 

 

 

Surely this is the same on a canal.

[floydraser]

Probably quantity may have a lot to do with it; are there more boats being used more of the time on canals?

[Cal]

1 hour ago, OldBerkshireBoy said:

Surely this is the same on a canal.

It is exactly the same.

We always had to fill in a form when we bought fuel on the rivers and canals. 

It took less than a minute. 

Most places were happy for you to declare whatever split you liked. More often than not ours was all domestic. It was never queried by the yards as the form was filled in and it was your declaration. 

It was only when we took the boat to the Broads or on the coast that we ever ended up paying the 60/40 split.

[kpnut]

I can’t really see why there would be a difference in the amount of paperwork between someone selling on a canal and on the Broads  

I always give my business to the yards that I know to be fairer, and have signed their ready-made forms for 60:40, which is the agreement ‘for ease’ with HMRC, but I would like to know how the price we are charged is arrived at, ie I’d like the proof that once the yard has chosen their retail sale price for domestic (0%) that duty is then only being charged on 60% of a fill. After all, that is the agreement we are signing with the yard supplying. In the canal marina he had both prices up a board at the desk. 
Calculating the spilt price is easy. A few seconds to press the calculator buttons in the right order. 
Red diesel price bought in at £x + markup will be the ‘domestic’ price, with 60% (or %of your choice) of the fill at 20% duty added for ‘propulsion’. 

[OldBerkshireBoy]

2 hours ago, Cal said:

It is exactly the same.

We always had to fill in a form when we bought fuel on the rivers and canals. 

It took less than a minute. 

Most places were happy for you to declare whatever split you liked. More often than not ours was all domestic. It was never queried by the yards as the form was filled in and it was your declaration. 

It was only when we took the boat to the Broads or on the coast that we ever ended up paying the 60/40 split.

Sorry Cal, It was the comment about mooring and the labour to operate the pump which is the same that I refered too, not paperwork and declaring the split.

[Smoggy]

52.95p per litre is the duty rate on road fuel, it's not a percentage like vat, that is charged on top and I think it's still 5% on red.

Edit: change that to 20%, 5% is for heating oil.

[OldBerkshireBoy]

3 hours ago, floydraser said:

Probably quantity may have a lot to do with it,

I would say it may have a little to do with it.

Buying the large fuel tank and the pump which needs licenced calibrating every year or two would be quite a few thousand pounds, plus the extra insurance and buying the fuel in advance to sell would be like playing Russian roulette with prices changing every week at the moment due to you know what. Most fuel sales would be in the warmer months and making a tiny profit on a sale of 30 or 50 litres whilst downing tools to do so with a smile wouldnt be my idea of getting rich quick.

[Bytheriver]

19 hours ago, OldBerkshireBoy said:

I would say it may have a little to do with it.

Buying the large fuel tank and the pump which needs licenced calibrating every year or two would be quite a few thousand pounds, plus the extra insurance and buying the fuel in advance to sell would be like playing Russian roulette with prices changing every week at the moment due to you know what. Most fuel sales would be in the warmer months and making a tiny profit on a sale of 30 or 50 litres whilst downing tools to do so with a smile wouldn't be my idea of getting rich quick.

-making a tiny profit on a sale of 30 or 50 litres whilst downing tools to do so with a smile wouldn't be my idea of getting rich quick. I think this just about sums it up! Same goes for doing Pump outs.

[Smoggy]

More worthwhile for those of us that can take 500-600 litres but I doubt there's so many on the northern rivers, but that also makes the jerry cans more worthwhile with the price difference.

Don't mention a certain riverside yard in brundall for prices.....

[OldBerkshireBoy]

If the majority bring their own jerry cans for fuel then these people will start to dismantle the infrastructure of the broads. So how long before you start to take those cans home full of waste as yard owners decided it isnt worth doing pump outs alone if they have to pay to have their large waste holding tanks emptied as some do.

Much like small shops and pubs - Use it or lose it.

 

[grendel]

pleasant surprise today arriving home from work and filling up at asda, diesel 172.9p / litre

[ExSurveyor]

19 minutes ago, grendel said:

pleasant surprise today arriving home from work and filling up at asda, diesel 172.9p / litre

You were robbed, I filled up at my local independent Shell station for £1.64 for diesel.

Petrol was £1.42.

The nearest morrisons and Tesco are at least 10p dearer.

The Shell station at Brundall is £1.85, that is ridiculous.

[grendel]

i do live in Canterbury, where the prices are first to rise and last to fall.

[garryn]

Comming down to the boat today I did notice that the fuel prices have started to drop. Does anybody know why there is such a big difference between diesal  and petrol. It used to be pennies but recently its been about 20p and 1 garage today it was 30p difference.

[ExSurveyor]

There is a greater demand for diesel from industry apparently.

 My local garage owner said he beats the supermarkets as he buys 24 hours in advance and they buy 2 weeks in advance. Earlier in the year he was the dearest for a while when the prices were rising.

[NeilB]

9 hours ago, ExSurveyor said:

There is a greater demand for diesel from industry apparently.

I wonder how long this will last for though ?  Most company car schemes are now handing back their diesels in exchange for electric or hybrid cars running on petrol.  Ours started switching a year ago plus offered early termination on diesels due to a lack 2nd hand cars.

Car park is now quarter full of Polestars and we haven't enough chargers for them all !!