Slow You Down

[Hylander]

https://www.northnorfolknews.co.uk/news/24364632.norfolk-broads-rangers-catch-hundreds-boaters-speeding/?ref=eb&nid=2399&block=article_block_a&u=c160d74be8c30ff96c1e228a4a7f5f71&date=090624

[Broads01]

Good news in my view. Some folk really do charge around with the throttle fully forward. I think it's always been like that but I'm pleased action is being taken.

[NeilB]

Some hire yards could do more, Richos are fitting a GPS to all their boats.  The one some friends just hired barely made 6mph.  On the other hand I’ve seen boats from other yards that are clearly not restricted in any way.

[rightsaidfred]

Seems somewhat surprising as from what I have seen there has not been that many boats on the rivers let alone speeding, the last 3 times I have been out I don't suppose I have seen a dozen boats speeding and a good half of those were private, is this just more BA spin justifying the tolls increase.

Fred

[dom]

51 minutes ago, rightsaidfred said:

Seems somewhat surprising as from what I have seen there has not been that many boats on the rivers let alone speeding, the last 3 times I have been out I don't suppose I have seen a dozen boats speeding and a good half of those were private, is this just more BA spin justifying the tolls increase.

I think the article was plagiarised from the Chief Exec's report for the BA nav committee for 6th June.

The Bure figures only equate to 4 a day, but seem disproportionately high compared to elsewhere, to the point that I wonder if it's a "typo" and should actually read 58.

EDP also seem to be conflating the figures. 432 is all issues. Speed was only 289 of those, and only 11 formal warning notices given.

 

[Andrewcook]

To add void Speeding using thier Mobiles for MPH I always do when I come on the  Broads so why other Boater's do the same when I'm on the Broads

[Wussername]

1 hour ago, dom said:

I think the article was plagiarised from the Chief Exec's report for the BA nav committee for 6th June.

The Bure figures only equate to 4 a day, but seem disproportionately high compared to elsewhere, to the point that I wonder if it's a "typo" and should actually read 58.

EDP also seem to be conflating the figures. 432 is all issues. Speed was only 289 of those, and only 11 formal warning notices given.

 

My dear Dom. Have you not realised that the BA has embraced A1 technology. A procedure which defies belief. I'm afraid that I do not understand it. In talking to my friends in the pub the other day (we used to hoe sugar beet together) they do not understand it either.

I can think of no other explanation.

It suits some to confuse.

 

[kpnut]

I was thinking to myself today that a really concerted education programme needs to be undertaken. This season seems far worse than in past years for some reason - people rushing about everywhere, often late on in the day trying to find a mooring or early morning when they think no-one will notice. The boats going fast, whether speeding or not, past moored boats is so inconsiderate. 
Hats off to Richos for their steps to help reduce the problem. It should be the thing that rings in peoples’ ears as they leave the yard for the first time. 
And I’m not saying it’s a hirer only problem. There are plenty of boat owners who should know better but seem to think the rivers are there for their enjoyment only. 

As well as being thoughtless to others, it does immense damage to the banks over time. We all moan about silted up rivers, bank erosion adds to that. 

[Broads01]

For hire boats, engine restriction is an interesting issue. Would it cause any problems to restrict all hire boats to 6mph?

[Jonathan]

I suspect that the EDP article was just to pad out an otherwise "light news" day. 

I am not convince that adding GPS will help with speeding issues; as we all know, speed over the ground (GPS) and speed through the water may be very different in any flowing water.  If you supply people with a digital speed readout then some will think that it "must be correct" (because it's digital) and will adjust engine RPM to get up to the local limit.  I do accept that in the less tidal areas a GPS speed will be helpful, and I commend the hire companies for adding this more modern technology, but like anything else, the user needs to understand what it is telling them.

Having said all of that, the rangers are using land-based speed guns and they are only measuring the speed over the ground, so the GPS readout may stop the boat from getting told off by a ranger, but does not necessarily help reduce riverbank wash, or past moored boats.

[rightsaidfred]

24 minutes ago, Broads01 said:

For hire boats, engine restriction is an interesting issue. Would it cause any problems to restrict all hire boats to 6mph?

I would think that would be quite dangerous against strong tides around GY and lower Southern rivers.

Fred

[dom]

49 minutes ago, rightsaidfred said:

I would think that would be quite dangerous against strong tides around GY and lower Southern rivers.

It's pretty foolish to push against a tide in full flow, but lots of hirers don't know any better. Peak tidal flow is about 4mph. Only having 2mph overhead really isn't enough margin for safety.

[grendel]

I generally go by the fact 2000 rpm is 5 mph, but then I can go through great yarmouth at tickover with barely any steerage way, and still be speeding, conversely I can be going flat out producing a lot of wash and barely be moving with respect to the land.

[NeilB]

51 minutes ago, rightsaidfred said:

I would think that would be quite dangerous against strong tides around GY and lower Southern rivers.

Fred

The boat my friends just handed back only just made it to 6.5mph, this was just before Thurn going with the tide.  The last Richos boat I hired back in 2015, I think, had a similar top speed.  The last boat I hired in 2021 was from NBD and was not restricted at all.

I can also remember many years ago on a Bounty 37 bath tub was also very slow, no GPS in those days, but we made it through Yarmouth twice - just very slowly.

The Thames is slightly different but all the boats I worked on were restricted, although this was removed if the river was in flood but this makes Yarmouth look tame.

[rightsaidfred]

1 hour ago, dom said:

It's pretty foolish to push against a tide in full flow, but lots of hirers don't know any better. Peak tidal flow is about 4mph. Only having 2mph overhead really isn't enough margin for safety.

Quite agree but it is easy to get times wrong with variable conditions, I have missed it myself in the past and virtually stood still on entering the Bure and my boat will do 8-9mph comfortably across Breydon.

Fred

[William92]

Regal Star, just returned to Barnes in Wroxham, reached 7.9mph (gps, across-the-ground) across Breydon but we were trying to hit low water, not low-slack, and we popped out of the Waveney almost like a champagne cork when we hit the bit where the Yare current sweeps in. We backed off after a quick speed trial, to save the engine for the Bure. That had a morse throttle, the newer stock uses... I don't know, maybe something more electronic with a physical lever for input? (I'd love to know, if any of the hire yards read this and want to infodump technical stuff in a PM it'd be grand 😅)

I don't have the information to say, but I would be curious to know what the actual engine load is on a hire boat. I suspect their props are "geared" sub-optimally so as to have better slow speed handling and maybe to not actually subject the engine to full load at max RPM (knowing that the quality of helmsman will be variable in the extreme, and there will be people who give the boat hell as well as those who are mechanically sympathetic...). This would give the engine more of a chance if people insist on punching tide in Yarmouth, 30 weeks of the year...

Largely I find the concept of speed-across-ground to be a bit flawed when on water, but I understand how subjective it might be trying to get people to reduce their wash specifically. At least "sign says 4, you were doing 5" is easy to understand regardless of interest in anything nautical in particular... I sort of take it as a matter of trust that they won't get on your back for doing 6 through Yarmouth's 5mph if it's the only way to maintain steerage on an ebb tide!

 

[Vaughan]

Interesting discussion, on a subject which has divided opinions for at least 50 years.  Perhaps I can make a few salient points :

What do we have speed limits for?  Why are they imposed?  The only reason has always been - WASH. 

Waterline length.  A long displacement hulled boat at 5MPH will make no wash at all.  Why do we think the rangers' launches never make any wash?  They are designed for the job.  Conversely, a small 15ft day launch at 5MPH will make a huge wash!   So imposing a blanket speed limit on all vessels will never be effective.

Water quality.  In the 60s, with no speed limits, we also had polluted water.  This killed off the reed fringe in front of the rhond and exposed the earth banks to serious wash erosion.  Nowadays we have good quality water and a strong reed fringe.  That is, in areas which have not been protected by the EA with bank piling.  Wash erosion is not a problem on the Broads anymore.

Speed limiting - I suppose we mean hire boats?  The Broads is a tidal waterway with strong currents in places which are very strong on spring tides.  To let a boat out on the river without sufficient power to stem those currents at all states of the tide, is just plain dangerous.  Experience has taught us that the minimum speed available to a Broads boat should be more than 7MPH.

In answer to a question above, yes, Broads cruisers have large, coarse pitch propellors which give them good manoeuvring at slow speeds.   It also means they can stop quickly!  This does not lend itself to high speed running and it is not meant to.

Boat speed (through the water) or ground speed?   This is the latest bone of contention, which is caused simply by the new ability to "download the APP".   Your speed over the ground cannot be related to the wash you are making, when you are in a tidal river.   If the whole purpose of the limit is to reduce wash, then ground speed is totally irrelevant.

What is needed (as has been for 50 years) is education on the need to cruise without making too much wash, especially in sensitive areas such as moorings.  This very much includes narrow shallow channels such as the Chet, where "squat effect" is caused by too high a speed (which may mean actually slower than the speed limit).

To stand on the bank at Irstead with a radar gun pointed at any type of vessel, large or small, river boat or speed boat, wash or no wash and then make the crew feel like some sort of serial offenders, because they were doing a ground speed of 4.18MPH instead of 4.00MPH is pointless, and actually rather silly.

 

 

[oldgregg]

15 hours ago, Jonathan said:

I am not convince that adding GPS will help with speeding issues; as we all know, speed over the ground (GPS) and speed through the water may be very different in any flowing water.  If you supply people with a digital speed readout then some will think that it "must be correct" (because it's digital) and will adjust engine RPM to get up to the local limit.  I do accept that in the less tidal areas a GPS speed will be helpful, and I commend the hire companies for adding this more modern technology, but like anything else, the user needs to understand what it is telling them.

Having said all of that, the rangers are using land-based speed guns and they are only measuring the speed over the ground, so the GPS readout may stop the boat from getting told off by a ranger, but does not necessarily help reduce riverbank wash, or past moored boats.

You're not wrong, but on the Broads the speed limit is SOG so there is currently no legal instrument for controlling speed through the water.

We could both look at a boat doing 1mph SOG through Yarco which is creating masses of wash against a 6mph ebb tide, but that will only ever be arbitrary.

On that basis, all you can do is provide guidance on SOG.

[CambridgeCabby]

Thank you for your insight Vaughan, when afloat although we have speed log etc ,which give a good indication of speed, we still habitually behave the way we were instructed by various hire yards in the 80’s and 90’s that emphasised the need to keep the wash to a minimum especially passed moored boats .

Irstead is a prime example where a boat can be travelling within the speed limits yet their wake can rock moored boats sometimes to an extreme .

its a pity the phrase “due care and attention to other river users” isn’t adhered to.

Must add , I have been rocked far more often by private boats and day boats than by hire cruisers 

[MargeandParge]

Doesn't anyone look out at the bank anymore if you can't walk at the pace you are travelling then you are over 4MPH. 6 MPH would be a very brisk walking pace

It's our stern gear that's thrashing about and cavitating 12000 to 1500 RPM for us sometimes if we back off the revs the boat handles so much more easily. 

Kindest Regards Marge and Parge 

[oldgregg]

2 minutes ago, MargeandParge said:

It's our stern gear that's thrashing about and cavitating 12000 to 1500 RPM for us sometimes if we back off the revs the boat handles so much more easily. 

If you're cavitating in that rev range then there are other issues. I've seen issues with certain boats (Connoisseurs particularly) where above a certain rev range they cavitate badly and so manoeuvring is 'interesting' to say the least.

[YnysMon]

17 hours ago, rightsaidfred said:

I would think that would be quite dangerous against strong tides around GY and lower Southern rivers.

Fred

I agree. There was one time when we were hiring when we came out the the New Cut with the falling tide against us and could hardly make any headway. We had to moor up at the St Olave's moorings and wait for the tide to turn. 

[grendel]

surely its down to the rangers to prove intent to speed. a number of the Martham boats I hired didnt even have a rev counter, so the speed you are doing always has to be a subjective judgement, to prove intent to speed for a prosecution, the BA would be required to pprove the boater knew they were speeding- if they dont even have a rev counter on the boat then its going to be mighty difficult for the BA to prove intent- some boats have a rev counter, but nothing else, again, if you are doing the rpm for a certain speed then how are you to know the speed across ground due to the current, I know that 2000 rpm is around 5mph, and that 1600 rpm is around 4mph (ish), but if I was pulled up for 4.2mph they would probably be asked how I can measure .2mph without a speedo and just a rev counter, actually I have a good idea what speed I am doing just by the appearance of the wash.If I have white flecks in the wash I am doing 5mph, if I can barely see a wash I am doing 3, judging 4 is a bit more difficult.

[rightsaidfred]

43 minutes ago, grendel said:

surely its down to the rangers to prove intent to speed. a number of the Martham boats I hired didnt even have a rev counter, so the speed you are doing always has to be a subjective judgement, to prove intent to speed for a prosecution, the BA would be required to pprove the boater knew they were speeding- if they dont even have a rev counter on the boat then its going to be mighty difficult for the BA to prove intent- some boats have a rev counter, but nothing else, again, if you are doing the rpm for a certain speed then how are you to know the speed across ground due to the current, I know that 2000 rpm is around 5mph, and that 1600 rpm is around 4mph (ish), but if I was pulled up for 4.2mph they would probably be asked how I can measure .2mph without a speedo and just a rev counter, actually I have a good idea what speed I am doing just by the appearance of the wash.If I have white flecks in the wash I am doing 5mph, if I can barely see a wash I am doing 3, judging 4 is a bit more difficult.

Even a rev counter is subjective depending on hull, engine and prop. At  a 1000rpm I am doing 3-4mph lower than that and I am in neutral, 12-1400 is around 5mph depending on tide and so on, at 2000 I am flying on Braydon with another 300 to spare but doubt that would make a lot of difference with  the hull design, I know from my hiring days and friends the same hull with different configurations of engine and prop behave differently, there is no one size fits all.

Fred

 

[MargeandParge]

5 hours ago, oldgregg said:

If you're cavitating in that rev range then there are other issues. I've seen issues with certain boats (Connoisseurs particularly) where above a certain rev range they cavitate badly and so manoeuvring is 'interesting' to say the least.

No I run at those revs without cavitation even at two thousand revs without cavitation but choose as I thought I explained to all I like to be kind to my boat, the environment and every body else as those revs use less fuel so I would imagine create less pollution. 

Kindest Regards Marge and Parge