the broads, a bad year

[andyg]

after visiting the broads last week, to view royall oak. very impressed with the boat and chatting to Sarah royall, she told us how tough things are this year for the yards. it certainly looks that way if Barnes webcam is to be believed, so many of there new boats sitting about. the thing I don't understand is why don't the yards start discounting instead of watching the seasons go down the pan.. im being bombarded by Thompson's holidays over the discounts they have on offer this summer. the yards have spent the money on winter maintenance and have put tax on the boats, so get them working, surely its better to earn a pound then not.

[Matt]

Today's Barnes newsletter was offering 25% off and there are at least 2 discount websites that have sprung up. We pulled into Richos during half term and the must have been about 100 boats still in yard and their boats seem to be very keenly priced.

[trambo]

Also noticed on the web cam sites how quiet it seems to be and also noted on Blakes/Hoseasons just how many boats seem to be available. Seems a great shame with all the investment that seems to have been made in the last couple of years. Is it down to the terrible summer last year and this years bad start? Or perhaps the general economic situation? As for discounting, personally it would not affect my choice but that is because I book well ahead to ensure I get the boat I want. 

[SPEEDTRIPLE]

Hi all, my own opinion (and i could be completely wrong?) is the weather over the last 2 years has put people right off. 2-3 years ago, the economy was about the same as it is now, but we had reasonable summers, and many people could`nt afford to take a family abroad, so holidays in this country enjoyed a boom in bookings. Now, even though the economy is still pretty tough, people are sick of the bad weather. That said, down here in sunny Dorset, it has been just that, "sunny", for a couple of weeks or more, so anybody that DID book in this country for this time of year has been able to enjoy some great weather. I don`t think cost is much of an issue, especially when you can hire a budget boat from Richo`s (and some of the independant yards) for up to 6 for little more than £500 per week?. This week, i`ve been trying to persuade a couple of the guys at work to take a boating holiday, and they`re the sort of people who are not that bothered about the weather, so hopefully, there`ll be a couple of newbies afloat this year.

 

Whatever happens, we`ll be afloat in 2 weeks time, and we`ll be enjoying it, no matter what the weather throws at us.

 

 

Regards and best wishes to all ..................... Neil

[Hockham Admiral]

I'll agree with that, Neil. We spend weeks afloat and last year was the worst we can remember for many.

So far this year it's not been too good either....

That's why I think it's so important that we hear all those good stories when peeps have an enjoyable holiday. Robin's blogs must go a very long way to encouraging new visitors.

[trambo]

Hi Neil. Your probably spot on. Like you, never had a Broads holiday I did not enjoy because of the weather (in fact I have never had a Broads holiday I did not enjoy, full stop). Have used Maffets myself on three occasions, they are incredibly well priced, their two wooden boats just ooze with character and the genuine welcome you receive is something only the smaller yards can give. Bet waiting the next two weeks will feel like months!

 

Fred

[C.Ricko]

I think it is widely acknowledged that this year is not a great one for the Broads (or any other destination,) up until recently the boating industry had not gone down the desperate discounting route that other sectors have as standard, it is a shame as it puts the whole industry into a last minute booking situation.

As has been recognised we have held off this as it alienates existing customers and encourages them to hold off booking next year until there is a deal available, it makes things very difficult to budget for.

After the promotions and offers of the early 1990s it took us years to get back on our feet and away from the discount culture, we beleive in Honest pricing, and will respect our customers who book early by offering a price promise where they would gain and not loose in the event of an offer, we plan not to discount and will weather this storm, we are here for the long term, we beleive in our brand and will not devalue it to earn a 'quick pound'

[Oddfellow]

Clive is absolutely spot on.

 

Whilst I've not been looking, academicallly it appears that the Barnes discounting isn't getting significantly more boats on the water anyway, so in effect they may be having to work twice as hard to get the same revenue as they might have anyway at full price. 

 

Discounting a service that has a limited supply and limited low-frequency repeat business is a bad idea in general terms. In my opinion, doing so in a way that encourages short notice bookings is akin to aiming a shotgun at your knees and taking your whole leg off when you pull the trigger. lt's not as though I can waltz down to Booker and buy more boating holidays to sell if I've already sold out those I bought last week at a .5% markup.

 

Clive's business saw what heavy discounting did in the 90's and he's in the best position to comment on the effects of this.

 

I don't think the price is the issue. It's demand. But even at a low point of demand, price will still have an effect, because a 70% discount will create demand; quickly.

 

From my point of view, it's simple. If there's reduced demand, then there will be reduced offerings in the coming years.

[LondonRascal]

I’m guilty because I recently used a discount website to book a boating break.  If it had not of been for this site I would not have gone (would have cost too much and their usual prices are too high anyway for me) so with two days before the Friday I was going I made the booking. 

 

I also felt guilty because in so doing I just joined those who may very well only use such sites and take what is left when they are able which of course makes forecasting for the boatyards for 2014 a nightmare not knowing how things may pan out. That said their boat was then out  – had earnt money, just as Roys did for my shopping, Lathams for ‘bits & bobs’ and Greater Anglia for my train fare. Whilst not a lot, 4 businesses got some money they would not have because one had a discount and enticed me to go.

 

As Clive says, the problem is with discounting it makes the usual ‘advertised price’ seem expensive – and then you are on slippery ground – when does the discount end – does the discounted price become the usual and a new discounted price then have to be that much more then what let staff go, standards slip – you would risk unhappy customers who simply desert you.

 

It is very short term thinking because while those boatyards who partake in such may get some bookings – it clearly can’t last in the long term but more worryingly as Andy drew to the fore is the fact you’ve got boats out there with 30% off last minute bookings and yet are still not let!  It makes me wonder therefore is it really about price, of a sea change in people who now no longer want to do activity holidays – or holiday here in the UK at all and instead despite not being as cheap as once was, head off to the likes of Spain where at least you will get good weather, a tan and still read The Sun.

 

This is not something I feel should be put at the feet of businesses to get out of but where tourism authorities and the like need to step up to the plate and help promote the area – I mean it seems Norwich as a destination – Norfolk as a whole is somehow the forgotten part of England – even the trains that take you there are decidedly shabby compared to those heading south or west.

[littlesprite]

Please don't take this the wrong way as nothing is intended to give offence, this is simply why I think the broads is struggling to attract new blood.

 

During the 50's and 60's when I first started coming to Norfolk/Suffolk there seemed to be much more in the way of things to do whether that was pubs or other, double mooring was common place and people seemed a lot more tolerant.

The modern holiday maker wants more than the broads has to offer (weather is not controllable) but children need entertaining during the day and adults expect entertainment at night. Whilst people will go on about the peace and quite, nature, the wild life, all very good but people want more (so go to Ibiza) and yes that's exactly what they are doing. 

 

Without money to dredge, repair quay headings and moorings how long will the broads last, to get the money you need tourists, to get tourists you need to give them what they want.

[LondonRascal]

You make a good point here Martin - but it is like the high streets in many towns with more and more closed shops - who would invest in an area where the 'heart and soul' has already gone? 

 

So with the Broads if you were looking to come to the area with a new venture - IF you ever got planning permission, then would you want to risk a lot of investment when the holiday makers who would make a lot of your income are on the decline.  Probably not.

 

I've not idea what - but I think what is needed is some 'regeneration' and not just another pub etc but high quality facilities that attract locals - people from the wider area too like Norwich (so you have some sustainable income) and then in the season naturally the passing tourist trade. 

 

I was not boating during the times so many boatyards closed – but I imagine that must have been a pretty awful time where each season another couple would have gone and their long standing customers had to look elsewhere.  One wonders where it may end up in 5 to 10 years. 

 

I just thought perhaps there are forums like this to do with camping or caravanning or other areas where they too are discussing less bookings and things being tight.  I’m sure it is not just boating holidays that are not as popular.

[littlesprite]

LondonRascal,

The high street analogy is a good one, if given the choice of traipsing up and down the high street in the wind and rain looking for what you want, having paid anywhere from £1 to £5 to park. 

Or go to Blue Water with unlimited free parking, every conceivable shop under one roof, choice of dinning options, entertainment for the kids within the mall, cinema if required, nursery for younger children.

 

Now which one?

[ranworthbreeze]

Robin it may just be a Norfolk Broads issue, we have been going on the canals as well as the Broads since 1975 and more so in the last 10 years. A few weeks ago we were on the Forth & Clyde and the Union canal the weather was poor raining most of the days and for the better part of the day. These canals are not that busy but have only been reopened less than 10 years. It costs a premium to go on these canals and up to date our dearest canal holiday at just over £1700 for a 6 berth boat for a week. Most of the canals in the UK we have found to be quite busy with moorings hard to find at times in some of the villages or near pubs.

 

Boating holidays have always been expensive and if the cheap holidays abroad continue it could be the death of holidays in the UK as we know them, after saying that I would always prefer a boating holiday or a holiday at the coast.

 

Regards

Alan

[MBA Marine]

I could not agree more with many of these comments, the BA taking control of planning is one of the biggest issues. we need to sustain local economy this cannot be funded by wildlife enthusiasts, we need the tourism.

even people like me who have nothing to do with the hire craft still need the tourism, no tolls from hire boats mean massive unaffordable tolls for privateers, they give up boating and myself and many others have no boats to fix, builders of boats have less to build. the broads then become un-navigable, cafe's pubs/restaurants gift shops, chandlers close,  property prices plumit, so on and so on it all leads back to tourism.

The wild life manages just fine living in harmony with some development and with the boats.

 

Things need to change in broads management, im not a BA basher but it would seem they want their cake and to be eating it, they want everyone's money but give them very little for it, leaving as much as possible to go to nature.

 

The next hiccup is a national issue, bloody heath and safety! The hoops, red tape and insurances to hire out a peddle boat, or stuff thats more appealing to kids like a little inflatable with electric outboard. but can you imagine late afternoon the boats more up then kids are able to play on the water rather than just shut up inside the boat bored out of their sculls or doing the same as they would at home playing computer games or watching TV.

 

One last thing is a question, There are a lot less hire companies, but are there less boats? as we now have fewer but much bigger yards.

[trambo]

 

One last thing is a question, There are a lot less hire companies, but are there less boats? as we now have fewer but much bigger yards.

I suppose it is over what time period you are talking as most yards have increased their fleets of late. If you go back to the heady heyday years though the number has dramatically reduced. In the late 60s 2300 cruisers and yachts plied for hire from over 140 boatyards at over 30 locations. It was certainly the era of the agency.  Most of the big yards  ( Jenners Woods Richardson ) belonged to the NSBYA (Blakes), whilst Hoseasons had the largest number of (if much smaller) boatyards and Bradbeer, Broads Holidays and a couple of independents added to the number.

 

What is certainly true is that the surviving yards today are of a much better standard. Today I reckon there are no bad yards as then (no need for a blacklist) and although I have my favorites I would feel confident booking from any. 

 

Fred

 

p.s Now that I think of it there is one yard I would be reluctant to book with!

[MBA Marine]

I suppose it is over what time period you are talking as most yards have increased their fleets of late. If you go back to the heady heyday years though the number has dramatically reduced. In the late 60s 2300 cruisers and yachts plied for hire from over 140 boatyards at over 30 locations. It was certainly the era of the agency.  Most of the big yards  ( Jenners Woods Richardson ) belonged to the NSBYA (Blakes), whilst Hoseasons had the largest number of (if much smaller) boatyards and Bradbeer, Broads Holidays and a couple of independents added to the number.

 

What is certainly true is that the surviving yards today are of a much better standard. Today I reckon there are no bad yards as then (no need for a blacklist) and although I have my favorites I would feel confident booking from any. 

 

Fred

 

p.s Now that I think of it there is one yard I would be reluctant to book with!

There is one that should remain nameless.

[trambo]

There is one that should remain nameless.

Have no fear it is in a sealed envelope!

[minor2011]

I think there are think there are a lot of factors which have combined to make the situation worse.

There is the financial situation at the moment but this isn't affecting the canals or the Caledonian canal/lochs

As was pointed out to me by a first timer to the broads, there just isn't enough infrastructure around to support the holiday makers. On the canals small things like water are much more readily available without someone asking to pay extra. There are more shower facilities without extra charge. The pubs wouldn't thinking of asking you to pay to moor up even if the money is refundable off a meal. Not so much on the Caledonian canal but there are more places to moor.

I did point out to him the plus points of the broads ie no locks lower prices. But his comment was that he felt the extra he paid for a narrow boat was worth it.

Another problem, when we arrived in Yarmouth (IN MAY) all the "touristy" shops were closing at "4" even the pier chippy was closed by 5. So unless you wanted to go to an amusement arcade or a bog standard high street you were out of luck for things to do. What a put off for a young family first time on the broads "come on kids lets go to yarmouth" kids, " yay" parents, "sorry kids it's closed. Let's go sit on the boat"

The other off putting thing is the prices some business are charging for thing to make ends meet. One example a coffee shop in Reedham 3 coffees & 3 slices of cake £14. Now that's higher than Starbucks. How can you justify that when your boat is less than 5 mins walk away with tea/coffee making facilities on board.

A drastic re-think is needed IMHO if we are to attract more people to the broads & arrest this decline.

On the point of the discount website that still can't get the boats let, well look at this, smallest boat Moorhen, even with the heavy discount it is still more expensive than LBBY or Whispering Reeds without 30% discount for the same basic type of craft ' that's just one example. Even HW who like Richardsons are quite keenly priced, one member of staff admitted he thought they had got the step price change between bands wrong, mid May 70 boats out. One week later & in the next price band 25 boats out & most of their repeat business that usually comes the later week had chosen the earlier week for the same reason as us. Almost £400 pounds difference in the space of a week. Now that's too much.

[trambo]

I think there are think there are a lot of factors which have combined to make the situation worse.

There is the financial situation at the moment but this isn't affecting the canals or the Caledonian canal/lochs

 

Agree the canals do not seem to be affected as much as the Broads. I live very close to a hire yard and he seems to have had most of his boats out for weeks now. There is a perception out there that the Broads are down market. If I tell someone I going to the Broads the response is sort of "Oh, thats nice," "You like the Broads don't you" or "We went once, years ago." On more than one occasion I have had to defend the Broads from negative comments. Mention I'm going on the canals and the response is that far more enthusiastic with much more interest  generated. There needs to be a continues push by all interested parties to 'up' the Broads. Yes, lets have little bit of spin, after all it is backed by fact.

 

Fred

[LondonRascal]

I have not tried this, so it maybe wrong of me to presume – but I recon I may be right in what I have to say.

 

Let us say I called a boatyard on Wednesday, I wanted to book a boat that was not booked for a week starting from Friday.  The boat in question however had a Saturday start day – I recon the boatyard would say very sorry Sir that boat is free but your holiday will need to begin on the Saturday.

 

If I was not able to do that (lets say the super cheap train fare was not an option for Saturday) I would loose out on a boat from them, they would loose out on several hundred pounds from me and the boat – well that would sit happily floating in the yard.

 

Now I may be wrong – as times are tight, you might be able to haggle over a start day if the boat was in the yard, cleaned and ‘ready for the off’ type thing.  But start days are there for a reason, after all if you have a lot of boats you need to have your team of cleaners and engineers stagger their jobs to turn around these boats and you can’t have all the boats being done at random times – but perhaps it might be an idea to think about more relaxed start days –  especially as peoples working patterns increasingly are no longer 9-5 Monday to Friday.

[trambo]

Hi Robin, I think you almost answered your own question! However you are right in that I think yards should be more responsive to customers requests, especially when bookings are low. To the big boys it should be a doddle, they usually have something not hired and the staff base, even for notice bookings but I can see the medium and smaller yards having a problem unless it was like your scenario at short notice. If it is, then again they should be able to respond positively. If the boat is Saturday start and you wish to take it Friday, then it should have been cleaned on its return with only the making of the beds ( or the arrival of fresh laundry if the yard does not make them up) to be done. If cleaning does not take place on your return then it can be left until the normal takeover day. The yard I use, which I would class as small/middle sized with twenty one boats and is mostly weekly hire (Friday or Saturday)but still has some short break boats which adds Monday and Tuesday to the starting days. This leaves just Wednesday and Thursday when there might be a staff issue. I would like to think they would be able to accommodate but really don't know. The smaller the yard, probably the more it could be a problem. I can think of one very small yard that has a very good reputation for hospitality but hiring is only a part of the business, again the only way is to try.

 

While on the subject of start days. For many years in the 80s/90s I hired a boat called Golden Realm 2 from Reedham. There were many reasons why I chose her but one of the main reasons was that she uniquely started on a Sunday. A lovely day to start. Roads quiet, no hassle. Now I now it's a unusual day to start, with staff issues  but if a boatyard out there is reading this it might be a selling point.

 

Fred

[C.Ricko]

We let every day apart from Sunday and Wednesday but they are for set boats, if you ring with the short notice Robin mentions then we will start boats on the 'wrong' days as long as it does not screw up the next booking...

You cant do this on line..

I think Leboat do the same thing....

[LondonRascal]

Thanks for the info there Clive, this is why I should remember to always ask (there is no harm in that and may be a positive outcome) and not assume the answer will be no and a negative one.

[Oddfellow]

It's worth noting that the slow year is not a Broads thing. It's pretty universal in the Tourist industry and not even just a UK thing. I spoke with one of the LeBoat managers a few days ago and he said that it's bleak through most of Europe's boats too. We can sometimes over analyse things and maybe come up with solutions to problems that may not really exist (though most of the assertions here I would agree with).

 

As for flexible bookings, Freedom has always let boats on any day of the week, for any number of days and all the availability, prices and bookings can be done online.

[minor2011]

Bleak for LeBoat is an understatement if what a former engineer told me.

His comment was that himself & others had recently left LeBoat as the company was seriously considering pulling out of the Broads if business didn't pick up dramatically this year.