Frack off

[finny]

Seems all National Parks are to be excused from Gas fracking - so I guess there is something good from being a member

 

 

fartinfin

[ExMemberBobdog]

That's not what they've said.

[ranworthbreeze]

Beauty spots still at fracking 'risk', say campaigners.

For the story please see the following link:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-28513036

Regards

Alan

[ExUserGone]

And it's not a proper national park anyway, the broads probably gets more harm done by all us smelly boaters mixing diesel fumes with the water than fracking ever would.

Two sides to every argument and all that....

[finny]

I only quote the report on the drive home that said it was local radio whilst the national news had more depth to the story later - it would be interesting who and what would define the term "exceptional case's" that said as a country the demand for energy is on the up and something tells me the whole topic of fracking for gas - well could be explosive in many ways

 

 

Finny

[MauriceMynah]

What are the objections to Fracking?

[finny]

" its to near my house"

[Warp]

I think the main objection is potentially fracking up the ground water and thus the drinking water. Not many worthwhile guarantees have been extracted from the frackers about not fracking up the drinking water.

[MauriceMynah]

I very much hope the problem isn't just Nimbyism, though from what I've heard it is starting to sound like that.

Wouldn't squirting water into the ground INCREASE the water table? What evidence is there to support this concern.

At a time where we are increasingly dependent on foreign powers to supply us our energy needs, and given that not all those powers are particularly friendly towards us, what are our other options?

Wind farms and Solar farms do contribute and there are now plans to build nuclear stations, but what about power now or at least soon?

We could of course start being more frugal with our consumption of oil... I know! What about "No running of engines at moorings." The way things are, that should save a load!

[ExMemberBobdog]

There are many concerns about fracking that go beyond 'nimbyism'.  Despite this years bountiful rain, East Anglia generally is a dry area, and we often have drought years/hosepipe bans etc.  Fracking requires the use of millions of gallons of water (to be pumped at high pressure into the rocks).  Where is that water going to come from?  What effects will that have on domestic consumers and local agriculture who also need water?  Experiments with fracking in the north-west led to local 'earthquakes'.  There are risks of contaminated water getting into the drinking water supply. 

 

Our lords and masters tell us that fracking has been successful in the USA, but there have been concerns even there about huge environmental costs.  They of course, have abundant empty areas of land, so fracking can take place a long way from heavily populated areas.  We live on a tiny island that is much more densely populated.

http://frack-off.org.uk/fracking-hell/

[MauriceMynah]

Ok, I write this very carefully or at least try to, as I don't want to fuel the very thing I'm trying to avoid.

 

I tried to read the link supplied by Bobdog, but to be honest I grew weary of the constant usage of the word "Fracking" as a substitute for swearing. I really believe these sorts of pressure groups do themselves no favours being that childish. I want to read things written by grown-ups for grown-ups.

 

What I did read of the site was in my opinion largely alarmist, with very little in the way of constructive suggestion.

 

However, all that to one side, I'm not going to get into an eco-warrior debate on this forum, it is not the place, though I would genuinely like to read evidence both for and against fracking and what the alternatives are perceived to be.

 

Idealy such articles would be written by experts in their field in a language that is comprehensible to the layperson such as myself.

[ExMemberBobdog]

Will this do?

[MauriceMynah]

Thank you for that Bobdog, it was very interesting though I don't think it has answered my questions so I'm still on the fence here.

 

I would have liked to watch an unedited version, but I doubt there's any way of proving that such a version exists. The problem is that as soon as something like this gets edited for duration, there's no way of saying how balanced that editing was.

Thank you all the same, it has given me food for thought.

[ExMemberBobdog]

He's an interesting character, if you 'google' him you'll find much more.  Interestingly he worked for Exxon and others as an expert in the field, and has become one of the leading sceptics.

[marshman]

Without wishing to start off a never ending argument for and against, it is a fact that US oil and gas production is back to its highest levels last seen in the early 1970's as a result of fracking and they are about to consider exporting oil again - some turnaround and if they are self sufficient it takes some pressure off world resources.

 

The internet is a wonderful thing - for every positive suggested by some learned body promising wealth and prosperity, you can find a negative seemingly equally learned report promising gloom and despondency. Join the GM food scare, Mr Fracking - its great to have principles but please don't in the same breath moan about the cost of food and energy increasing if you cannot embrace new technology

 

.IMHO man is only where he is today by doing just that and moving forward but its an argument some never accept - as if you can really ever stand in the way of advancement. Just ask the Luddites!

 

Me? What do i think? I am not sure anyone really cares and my thoughts will have no impact on the end result of either!!

[ExUserGone]

On a similar note there are so many objections to HS2 but I can't realy see how it's different from when motorways were first built, or the original railways, or the canals, or the carving up the coutryside with other waterways just to join up a few old peat diggings to make trade easier, now where does that remind me of......

Theres now talk of russia quietly funding the campaign against fracking, now I wonder where most of europe buys it's gas from......

[ExMemberBobdog]

"for every positive suggested by some learned body promising wealth and prosperity".  Usually 'research' financed by the businesses that will benefit, never mind the costs that will be imposed on the rest of us.

[Timbo]

I've been keeping a close eye on this fracking malarkey for personal reasons...personal reasons along the lines of... I don't want my house to fall down. When the government first announced the deals for local authorities who took up fracking, cynical me thought 'I bet my local council (West Lindsey) will sign up. Sure enough they did...they were the first one. Their proposed site six hundred yards from my door, 'although we are not going to be operating from that particular site...honest'. Since that announcement i've seen heavy duty machinery  carve a better track to the proposed site, straight through the middle of some medieval ridge and furrow. I've seen a planning notice go up with a little footnote saying that 'this has nothing to do with fracking' although the change of planning does open up the site for fracking. We now have 'magical signs' inscribed along the track with studs placed at intervals to mark a pipeline, and this morning I copped hold of a surveyor measuring an area which is roughly that proposed for a fracking site...in the middle of a nature reserve, across more medieval ridge and furrow, medieval marl pits and only a few hundred yards from Forkbeard and Cnut's fortified long house. But what really has me worried is that all of the houses in this area suffer from subsidence of one form or another. Indeed my house was built in a gap created when the previous house fell down through subsidence...fear not I did not buy it.

 

Then while I was down on the Broads they slipped the Prime Minister past my front door for a quick press conference. One of the neighbours attended to ask what it all actually meant. The reply he got was they were going to drill into the ground under our houses, sluice out the strata to release the gas and then pump sand in to fill the gap...sort of thing. Now my first reaction was...'what like the same sand that is being compressed under the current buildings making them fall down'? My second reaction was 'how much have the local council been offered to allow this'? Quite a bit it seems.

 

The little mention of 'National Parks' and 'exceptional circumstance' hit my cynical muscle again and I can't help but wonder how much money constitutes an 'exceptional circumstance'?

 

Still that is just me, and I have been known to totally ignore the advice of John Heywood and not only look down the gee gees gullet but reach for the rubber glove and James Herriots phone number.   

[Warp]

Thanks for that bobdog

Watched both videos and a UK specific one.

My short term objection is that they are more or less guaranteed to screw up the water supply to some extent. Failure rates on new wells of this type in the US are over 8% and they get worse over time. They also create vast amounts of polluted water which will also create problems.

The infrastructure on the surface seems to have higher capital costs than renewables for the same energy rate but limited to a few decades where the renewables would last much longer. Most of this gas will be burnt to generate electricity so renewables are a better option for everyone except the big power companies who have invested in gas turbines and oil companies who have invested in drilling. Unfortunately these companies also invest heavily in buying politicians.

Put simply we could pay the same or less for something that will do the same job, using current proven technology, will last longer, create less pollution and cause less global warming but we are not because politicians have been paid to believe they are playing it 'safe' by doubling down fossil fuel. The consequential costs to fossil fuel are huge but no one seems to manage to get that past the hear no evil see no evil brigade.

None of it has much if anything to do with the diesel you use in your boat or the petrol in your car which is pretty much spitting in the ocean compared to what the power companies have planned.

[MauriceMynah]

Seeing as we are all "playing nicely" I will add this post to the pot.

 

I hear that Wind farms are ...

1. Producing less power than they took to build.

2. Making minced meat from the bird life around them and

3. Destroying our beautiful countryside.

 

Then I hear that Domestic Solar Panals are ...

1. Reducing pensioners to abject poverty.

2. Putting negligible power into the grid and

3. Destroying our beautiful urban heritage

 

I also hear that Solar Farms are...

1. Taking up valuable farmland.

2. Are massively inefficient and have a short working life. and

3. Are destroying the only bit of beautiful countryside the wind farms left.

 

Now we are proceeding with fracing (the correct spelling I believe) I hear that we are...

1. Going to pollute our water supply

2. Going to cause earthquakes and...

3. Going to destroy our beautiful countryside with all its wonderful wind and solar farms.

 

What I do not hear is...

1. We must reduce our motoring mileage. (and for "we" read this as "I")

2. We must reduce our household power consumption (and again for "we" read this as "I") or

3. As society has proven it's inability to do either of the above in meaningful amounts, we must accept any and every new method of acquiring energy irrespective of the downsides.

 

Research is essential to find alternative power sources and/or other ways of reaching oil, but at the moment the only organizations funding this research are the oil and electricity industries. Don't knock the oil industry, they are doing what they can to replace mineral oil or to stretch the supply by diluting it. (ever heard of FAME) They have to do this as they know that not to do so will leave them "running out of juice".

 

I don't know if fracing is dangerous or not, but until some viable alternatives are found, I see little alternative other than to bite a very unpleasant bullet.

 

In short, rather than forever shouting "Down with this" or "Ban that" how about shouting "Support this" or better still "Here's a pound, research that."

 

Now, don't get me wrong here, I'm no angel but even I accept that if we are going to use energy in this ever increasing spiral something's got to give

[riyadhcrew]

Can't for the life of me find an argument for your post Peter.

[ExSurveyor]

MM, what a well balanced post.

[marshman]

The trouble is with "renewables" is that cannot and do not produce when you want them to, and you cannot store that unwanted "product" when its produced and not used!! Handy that!!

 

No doubt protesters were just as concerned with oil exploration - like it or not you cannot stand in the way of "progress". Someone talked earlier about HS2 - we just cannot afford not to have it and yet people still complain. I recall 2 little old ladies holding up the M25 for several years ( good some say!!) but in reality it was always going to happen so lets get on and do it.

 

And whilst ancient ridge and furrow is of interest, there are many hundreds of acres of this in the country.

 

However whilst I sympathise to some extent, it will happen because thats what the silent majority who do not care about your specific interest (sorry!) want and the Greens and objectors just make the whole process so much more expensive and provide work for lawyers and consultants - ultimately to no avai!!

 

 

[MauriceMynah]

" I recall 2 little old ladies holding up the M25 for several years " 

 

They still do!

 

[JennyMorgan]

We all want power, we rush from one mooring to another, plugging in as soon as we get there. Quite simply we can't have it both ways. From a Broads perspective I have long thought that the carbon emissions of a boat should reflect in its tolls.  If we use power then it has to be replaced, plain & simple.