What do you think?

[JennyMorgan]

http://www.eveningnews24.co.uk/news/warning_that_historic_craft_could_be_lost_from_the_broads_1_4052903

 

I do agree that the Wherries need help. I don't agree with the unsubstantiated attack on twin screw motor yachts. To my way of thinking the Wherries add far more to the attraction of the Broads than does the whimsical lie that the Broads is a national park.

[smellyloo]

I see nothing wrong with tolls being based on number of engines as well as the other criteria, if this helps to reduce the overheads for historic craft on the Broads so much the better.

[MauriceMynah]

On the face of it, it sounds reasonable, however, with deeper thought it raises all sorts of questions.

What constitutes a "Classic boat" ?

Take a Princess 32, a twin engined classic, so in which camp does it belong?

Does a modern wooden craft qualify as a classic?

Does a marine ply boat qualify?

 

If the objective is to tax the rich to subsidise the poor, and it is agreed that classic woodies cost a lot to run, who is richer?.

 

Paladin (e)?   has a PDF that he has attached to a post in the 'other place' If he would be kind enough to post it here too I'd be most grateful. It gives more detail,s as to who is raising this issue and what lies behind it.

[ExUserGone]

Surely a sailing wherry already has a reduction by not having an engine and being on a different toll scale.

[C.Ricko]

All the boats which are for hire or reward should be treated in the same way in which the hire fleets are so therefore should apply the multiplier.

 

Why discourage any group of river users,

 

This week I showed a Broads Authority member a boat in our wet shed which has not moved for 10 years but the owner has to pay a toll, it was argued that the owner has the opportunity to use the boat but it is their choice that they don't.

 

I later touched on the multiplier which I said was unfair to the hirer as roughly £60 of a hire was Toll and I felt the multiplier should be less. after being told that the hire boats are used more I replied that the Private owner has the opportunity to use their boat just as much and it was their choice not to!

 

When all the big boats and hire boats have gone there will be lots of lovely sailing boats with their keels stuck in the mud because there is no money in the tolls account for dredging

 

I do accept this is not a BA issue but a reaction to a PR exercise from a user group.

[JennyMorgan]

Whilst I think that the BA needs to review both its toll and what is acceptable in regards to the size of non commercial boats I do wonder if the Broads Society's target is to subsidise a heritage fleet or to discourage overtly non Broads craft from the area. Either way I am concerned that what is a very worthwhile watch-dog, the Broads Society, is going to alienate itself from the big boat fraternity. However, in fairness, perhaps both topics need airing, but in isolation.

[JennyMorgan]

Clive, I don't know the outcome but I do know that James at the Waveney River Centre has a boat in one of his basins that never leaves its mooring, the owner has been fighting the BA over this. Might be worth calling James.

 

I have a boat in my garden, it could float, if I chose to use it. Just a case of hitching up the lawn-mower to the trailer & launching her. I have the opportunity to use it, just as does the owner of the boat in your shed. No one has demanded a toll for her, even if she is ready to go and about fifty yards from the water. Not just, by any standard. 

[C.Ricko]

The houseboat at WRC pays a toll..

If you own the water your boat is in then you don't have to pay a toll..

[C.Ricko]

I have a pedalo in my dyke, I assume it is not a 'broads craft' assuming there were two people pedalling  would it attract a higher tax if it went onto the river?

[C.Ricko]

it is quite a old pedalo, (not pre war) but it is a classic fiberglass one, will this make a difference?

[kfurbank]

There are the odd extreme cases that can be quoted, but it would be difficult to legislate for all, therefore the best you can do is work on an average. Yes there are private boats that never move, but also there are private boats used for living aboard that make for more use of the facilities then your average boat. The average hire boat will spend much more time on the system and therefore create more wear and tear on public moorings etc, than the average private boat. In addition rightly or wrongly a hire boat is a commercial venture and commercial ventures are often subject to completely different rates of tax. I believe that business rates are often higher then residential council tax. It must be remembered that a private boat comes with only expenses and no income stream for the owner, whereas a hire boat is a source of income balanced against the outgoings. 

 

With regards to vintage boats, I would have thought that anything used on a commercial basis would be attracting paying guests therefore a hire multiplier should be appropriate. For private boats then the owner knows before buying what expenses are due and I don't see why owning an older boat should be liable for a reduction, before you know it people with electric boats will want an eco reduction. Owners of brand new boats will want a reduction on the basis their boat has a brand new engine and probably much lower rates of emissions than boats that are 20 to 30 years old.

 

At the end of the day we could all probably make a case for toll reduction based upon lack of use, emissions, age, type of construction, etc, however the BA need the income to perform their duties and a decrease in toll income from one sector will need to be paid for by another sector.

[JawsOrca]

Personally, I would have thought wherries owned by charities should get a reduction. But if they are owned by a profit making organisation then they should be taxed just like any other "hire boat". 

Although I'd also like to see the hire fleet helped out as without them the broads would be very dull. I'd also don't agree that a boat which isn't a broads born cruiser should pay anymore than one that is, although perhaps if mega gym palaces owned by wealthy resident of the broads should pay a huge amount (but that's hardly fair). I don't think the tolls should go up anymore though. I also think a dinghy (of any type) used as a tender to a full paying cruiser shouldn't pay any toll (if it's in the same river section).  

 

So if it was down to me the BA tolls would probably have a serious deficit!  (surely the toll costs of a wherry is minor compared to the other costs involved in keeping these going?)

[kfurbank]

Dave, If they do, its not published on the BA website under the tolls section. There are only three classes of boats, 1) motor boats powered by any kind of motor. 2) motorised sailboats 3) non motorised sailboats and non propelled houseboats etc.

[BroadScot]

Apparently I was wrong, it's not 25%, it's 30%.

 

http://www.broads-authority.gov.uk/boating/owning-a-boat/environmentally-friendly-boating

 

Thought I'd read it somewhere.

 

Dave

Will that mean the Brinks Rhapsody electric boat gets the 30% discount also?

 

 

Iain.

[kfurbank]

That's why the whole "Green issue" is so subjective. Rhapsody still has a diesel generator on board and aside from the benefits of quiet cruising when running on battery power only, is still as capable of making noise and emitting pollution as any other diesel powered boat. The solar panels will only replace a small amount of the power needed during the average week and therefore I doubt it is much cheaper on diesel for a weeks hire. Indeed with all the electric gadgets on-board it probably drinks more diesel than my boat in a week.

 

If the BA really want to encourage electric boating they need to install a shed load more electric points and start to implement some policy around who can moor near and use them. That opens an even bigger can of worms I suspect.

[mbird]

I tend to agree with the idea that perhaps Wherries, if owned by charities or other non-profit organisations, should be exempt from tolls. They are, after all, part of the history and heritage of the Broads and I love seeing them out and about.

 

I do object, however, to the tired old scape-goat of raising tolls on larger twin-screw craft. We already saw our tolls go up far more than smaller boats a couple of years ago, although this has to some extent been redressed.

 

What a lot fail to realise is that by the very nature of the larger boats, we cannot access all of the Broads due to the height restrictions of the bridges at Yarmouth. Therefore we pay just as much toll as every other river user, for use of only half the system. That effectively means we are paying double toll per usable mile of river (approx). That is our choice.

[JennyMorgan]

If a boat can't pass under Potter Bridge then that is down to the choice of the owner, he still has the right to go under it!

 

Re pedellos, great fun, surprised that there are not a few more on the Broads. We had two when our kids were young although one has gone to the great boat graveyard in the sky whilst we gave the other away to a family with a couple of youngsters.

Edited April 29, 2015 by BroadScot
Removed duplicate post JM

[quo vadis]

IMHO boats should not pay more for having 2 engines, that's silly, should be related to number of cylinders per engine 4 and 6 ok but what numpty would have 2 x 5 cylinder engines charge these people more as must be the most out of balance engines that have ever been produced. causing untold damage to the waterways.  you know who you are

[Matt]

Surely the obvious answer is more donation poles.........

[ExUserGone]

So where does a single engine boat with an auxilary outboard stand?

Maybe sailboats with more than one sail should pay extra......

[SPEEDTRIPLE]

How about a large gaff cutter with a main engine and wing engine, all those sails and 2 engines, ................ The BA would have a field day.

[dnks34]

Why is it silly to charge twin engined boats more? when you look at the toll prices for various craft the whole toll system seems senseless to me, it could be completely overhauled with new catagories for all types of vessels on the broads.....espeacially those with more than 1 fridge

[alexandlorna]

IMHO boats should not pay more for having 2 engines, that's silly, should be related to number of cylinders per engine 4 and 6 ok but what numpty would have 2 x 5 cylinder engines charge these people more as must be the most out of balance engines that have ever been produced. causing untold damage to the waterways.  you know who you are

 

 

 

I may be wrong ( and frequently am ) but are 5 cylinders not an extremely well balanced and almost perfect compromise no ?

 

Regardless anyone with a red engine of the Beta variety should be paying half tolls as its a thing of wondrous  beauty and emits exhaust purer than driven snow !

[dnks34]

5 cylinders were (not sure if still are) popular with Volvo! Theres got to come an emmissions aspect to all this. I often see boats coughing out the blue and black stuff when as with the beta engine my nanni smells like airwick and doesnt smoke even in the cold

[BroadScot]

How about a large gaff cutter with a main engine and wing engine, all those sails and 2 engines, ................ The BA would have a field day.

Should that not be a "water day" Neil

 

 

Iain.