Smoking in pubs

[MauriceMynah]

Right, first the unpopular statement. The smoking ban has been the undoing of many pubs up and down the land ever since it's introduction. The numbers of non-smokers who now visit pubs has nowhere near replaced the smokers who have left or reduced their drinking. This ban has alone been more damaging than the drink-drive laws and the price of drinks put together.

My Source? or the basis of that statement?

I have been in the pub trade, I have been in the supermarket trade, I am a regular visitor to many pubs. I am usually on my own so tend to chat to landlords on my visits. I use my eyes and keep my ears open. Finally I am thinking of buying a pub, broadland if possible. I do keep my finger on the pulse.

I read things like "pubs don't have a snow flakes chance in hell of making a living on the back of drink"  (paraphrased not a quote ) This is wrong. There are quite a few pubs which make a reasonable living without doing food or doing minimal food. They make their money from the sorts of people who moan about the demise of the traditional English pub.

I was in a broadland pub last year when the landlord, after repeatedly warning a customer about his unruley children, told the man to leave the premesis. The landlord did this quietly and discreetly. The customer stormed out shouting abuse at the landlord, swearing his head off and generally making it known what he thought of the place. It was an unpleasant experience. I can fully appreciate why a landlord might not allow children in. These days there are few children about who know how to behave.

The hayday for the traditional pub may well have passed, but the trade itself is far from dead. There is plenty of room for all the different types of pub from Gastro to spit'n'sawdust on the broads, and I just hope that people (within the trade) will try to find what's missing rather than blindly follow other businesses.

 

[BroadScot]

9 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

Right, first the unpopular statement. The smoking ban has been the undoing of many pubs up and down the land ever since it's introduction. The numbers of non-smokers who now visit pubs has nowhere near replaced the smokers who have left or reduced their drinking. This ban has alone been more damaging than the drink-drive laws and the price of drinks put together.

My Source? or the basis of that statement?

I have been in the pub trade, I have been in the supermarket trade, I am a regular visitor to many pubs. I am usually on my own so tend to chat to landlords on my visits. I use my eyes and keep my ears open. Finally I am thinking of buying a pub, broadland if possible. I do keep my finger on the pulse.

I read things like "pubs don't have a snow flakes chance in hell of making a living on the back of drink"  (paraphrased not a quote ) This is wrong. There are quite a few pubs which make a reasonable living without doing food or doing minimal food. They make their money from the sorts of people who moan about the demise of the traditional English pub.

I was in a broadland pub last year when the landlord, after repeatedly warning a customer about his unruley children, told the man to leave the premesis. The landlord did this quietly and discreetly. The customer stormed out shouting abuse at the landlord, swearing his head off and generally making it known what he thought of the place. It was an unpleasant experience. I can fully appreciate why a landlord might not allow children in. These days there are few children about who know how to behave.

The hayday for the traditional pub may well have passed, but the trade itself is far from dead. There is plenty of room for all the different types of pub from Gastro to spit'n'sawdust on the broads, and I just hope that people (within the trade) will try to find what's missing rather than blindly follow other businesses.

 

I wish you well MM on your hunt for the Broads Pub that you yearn for to buy and run.

Iain.

[Soundings]

Disagree away MM, but banning smoking was right and I know pubs that are still successful despite it. I for one applaud the day that ban came in and pray its extended to more public areas - it is an antisocial thing and if people wish to damage their health then that is fine by me but they can do it in private. End of.

As far as what pubs may or may not survive, we all have our opinions but the number of pubs closing goes to show their heyday is well past. Drinks are too expensive for a lot of people and driving makes having more than a pint or two risky. And even that permitted level will change idc so what then?

At the end of the day, it is cheaper to buy at the supermarket an drink at home. Personally I do not see that as a great alternative to a nice traditional pub but times an attitudes are changing - indeed have changed.

[JennyMorgan]

I know of several pubs that are often absolutely heaving despite the smoking ban. Instead of smoking people resort to eating, indeed I know several friends who eat out two and three times a week, more often than not at the Wherry in Oulton Broad. The Wherry is an absolute money making machine for its owners, Castle Carveries. They have got it right, right enough to charge more than other local carveries and still do more than a thousand meals on a Sunday. Their booze prices are top dollar yet people still drink there because it is busy, because it is popular. Castle Carveries have shown that it can be done.

Less than successful publicans are always ready to blame the smoking ban, rather than themselves, but surely the decline started with the breath test and people's over reliance on their cars. What is so wrong with a walk to the pub? 

[BroadScot]

4 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

What is so wrong with a walk to the pub? 

Errrr the weather?

Iain

[TheQ]

14 minutes ago, BroadScot said:

Errrr the weather?

Iain

And a looonnng walk

[imtamping2]

"  Instead of smoking people resort to eating, indeed I know several friends who eat out two and three times a week "

Thats not too bad, I expect they are just glad they did not have a 40 a day habit..

[MauriceMynah]

" Disagree away MM, but banning smoking was right and I know pubs that are still successful despite it. I for one applaud the day that ban came in and pray its extended to more public areas - it is an antisocial thing and if people wish to damage their health then that is fine by me but they can do it in private. End of. "

Soundings, I thank you fow allowing me to disagree   and indeed I have to. Smoking is not against the law. If the government wish to ban it then they should make it illegal. I wouldn't either disagree or even disapprove of such an action. What I do not like is the government telling a publican that he cannot allow smoking in his pub. This should be the landlords choice not the governments.

I hear said that the pubs are doing better since the ban. Fair enough, that means the ban can be lifted if that's true. No publican will allow smoking in their pub if such action is going to lose them money. Actually to lift the ban and allow publicans that choice would end up with some non smoking pubs and others smoking. Freedom of choice. now there's an idea.

[NorfolkNog]

2 hours ago, JennyMorgan said:

 

Less than successful publicans are always ready to blame the smoking ban, rather than themselves, but surely the decline started with the breath test and people's over reliance on their cars. What is so wrong with a walk to the pub? 

I think this topic has drifted somewhat in the inimitable NBN way 

However I think Peter's point is worth highlighting. 

I also agree about the eye watering prices in the Wherry as I've just experienced them first hand. But, and it's a big but, they were selling Green Jack and faced with Gloombar as an alternative I was willing to pay a premium. In addition we were in warm and comfortable surroundings with room to breath. We could also listen to the live band in the party suite next door 

the reasons for Pub decline are many and varied, Peter and Soundings have touched on some of them. I believe the pubcos have a lot to answer for too. 

However in spite of all this I still don't drink at home. To me a single pint of well kept real ale drunk in a pub is preferable to a crate of John Smiths or Gloombar drunk at home any day. If I had to resort to drinking  in my kitchen I'd rather give up 

Long live the pub 

 

[Springsong]

When we took over The Ship Inn at South Walsham, good grief thirty four years ago we were in the clutches of Norwich Brewery. This bunch of cowboys was of course the remains of the Watney Grand Met. people. We had a tenancy agreement where you paid a fixed rent on a fixed turnover of I think ours was £12000.00.  Any increase in the turnover above the £ 12000.00 a percentage (which I forget) was payable in extra rent. The result was that some landlords didn’t bother to grow their business, added to which little or no repairs were done to the fabric of the buildings unless absolutely necessary.

 

The first few years we were not allowed to buy anything except tobacco from anywhere other the Norwich Brewery, ultimate government intervention made it possible to buy anything except the keg and real ales outside the tie.

 

To give you an idea what this meant. An 11 gallon Carlsberg keg, brewed by the parent company could after a drive in a Range Rover to an east London cash and back could be bought for £50 or £60  pounds less than the brewery were charging me, bearing in mind this is including delivery of one keg not a dray full.

 

When we took over the previous landlord had very successfully alienated the bowls club the cricket club the football club and many of the darts players.

 

We managed to turn it all around took us three years or so. The brewery towards the end became unbearable, filming all our deliveries to try to catch us buying outside the tie, we in fact never did. Eventually our lease/ tenancy was due to be renewed and the new company Inntrepeneur (Ithink they were called) the full repairing lease took my rent from about £ 16000 to over £22000. Overnight, I of course refused to sign it and left the pub industry. These leases were eventually tested in the highest of courts and found to be illegal and the inntrepeneur company disappeared in short order.

 

I think personally that the serious decline  In the British pub is due to many things, greed by the pub owners be it brewery or pubco, The fact that at one time the biggest pub owner was Nomura (I think) a Japanese bank for goodness sake. A bloke with blue shirt yellow tie and red braces sat in a high rise with a blue flashing light on top on a wharf in an old dock In the east end knows all about and cares less about a local pub on the Broads; or at least as much as the chair of BA the chair of DEFRA or anyone who lives and works in the totally unreal atmosphere of government.

 

Pubs and smoking have undoubtedly had an effect on pubs not always for the good, sometimes having to make ones way through dog ends and smokers to get into a building, but on the whole as an ex-smoker, good I think.

 

I knew personally people who spent substantial amounts of redundancy money on unsuitable pubs, they were conned by brewery management into parting with their redundancy/life savings by totally unethical b******s as a sop to the still around shareholder.

 

I must apologize for this rant but pubs for many years have been a living and a bit of a passion for me, the decline of the great British pub has been a great sadness to me, at one point in the 80s in the Norwich licensing area 300 pubs a year were going skint/ bankrupt, of this 300 around 150 were going skint/ bankrupt twice and of the 300 pubs 50/60 were going under three times in the same year. Now tell me the pub owners did not know this.

 

I have absolutely no idea what I have said which why I generally don’t get involved with this type of thread too many pints and vodkas under the bridge so to speak, anyway of some interest to someone I hope.

 

Oh and children, for me not after 8pm and then only deep fried in batter

 

 

[NorfolkNog]

That is probably one of the best analysis I have read regarding  the pub trade highlighting the problems that hardworking landlords are up against. Very well put Barry and I think that goes right to the heart of the problem 

 

[Springsong]

Too kind Howard, very generous.

[NorfolkNog]

Aw thanks Barry, but not really, I think you can only really fully  understand the true nature of pubcos when you have been involved with them and know exactly how they operate. 

[jeffbroadslover]

I know it's been hammered out before but it amazes me that a government will allow you to buy fags and then tell you that you can't smoke them in public places OR in your own private car if you have someone under 18 yrs old in it.

The silly part of that is there is nothing saying that a 17yr old cannot smoke in a car with an older person in it but the older person cannot smoke with the 17yr old in the car!?!?!?

 

Jeff

[Soundings]

9 hours ago, MauriceMynah said:

Smoking is not against the law. If the government wish to ban it then they should make it illegal.

They will not make it illegal but they will make it illegal to smoke in all public places and rightly so imo. There is no doubt in my mind that this will follow. A pub is a "public" house open to all and it is reasonable to ban smoking inside the building - it does not ban smokers, just smoking on the premises. If you allow smoking on the premises you are effectively excluding the majority of the population who do not like a smoke laden bar. Do you fancy a restaurant where the punters can smoke? 

[Gracie]

I do not smoke, it seems to me that the Government are allowing a product to be sold but banning people from using it in most places........I wonder why, wouldn't have anything to do with taxes and profits to be made on selling said cigarettes would it?

Grace

[BroadScot]

5 minutes ago, Gracie said:

I do not smoke, it seems to me that the Government are allowing a product to be sold but banning people from using it in most places........I wonder why, wouldn't have anything to do with taxes and profits to be made on selling said cigarettes would it?

Grace

Whatever gave you that idea Grace???   Cough!!! Cough!!!

Iain

 

[TheQ]

The problem with banning tobacco products is they already have a huge problem with illegal imports, the drugs gangs would say thank you very much and be even harder to cope with like prohibition was in the States. The government would have less money  to pay the police to stop it...

 Licencing drugs to be sold cheaper to those already on drugs than the drugs gangs sell it at, would stop the drug gangs and the pushers. cutting much burglary and theft and probably cutting usage.

Getting the price right on any substance, is a balance between making it as expensive as possible to discourage users, but keeping it low enough to discourage smugglers and pushers.

[Soundings]

11 hours ago, Gracie said:

I do not smoke, it seems to me that the Government are allowing a product to be sold but banning people from using it in most places........I wonder why, wouldn't have anything to do with taxes and profits to be made on selling said cigarettes would it?

Grace

You have a good point, Gracie. Tobacco companies are very influential as well - they have effective ways to lobby. It is also difficult to ban sopmethin that has been legal for ever and a day. Smoking is a health risk. secondary smoking is also a health risk so banning it from public places is the right thing to do in that it protects those who do not smoke.

[littlesprite]

I understand and support the ban on smoking in public enclosed spaces, if however smoking is banned in public open spaces then what next, ban cars because of the harmful emissions, and what about all that diesel fuel burnt by boats.

Freedom needs some control for the benefit of all but be careful or freedom will be the next thing banned.

[Soundings]

2 hours ago, littlesprite said:

I understand and support the ban on smoking in public enclosed spaces, if however smoking is banned in public open spaces then what next, ban cars because of the harmful emissions, and what about all that diesel fuel burnt by boats.

Freedom needs some control for the benefit of all but be careful or freedom will be the next thing banned.

Give it time, Littlesprite, all things will come. Pollution at all levels will be hit one way or another.

Freedom is a wonderful concept and it is a truism that one man's freedom is not necessarily anothers. Those who love to walk through the streets smoking may consider it a right, a part of their freedom but those who suffer as a result of stale smoke and dog-ends all over the place might well see it another way. They may well consider it discriminates against their right to clean air.

Never easy

[littlesprite]

45 minutes ago, Soundings said:

Give it time, Littlesprite, all things will come. Pollution at all levels will be hit one way or another.

Freedom is a wonderful concept and it is a truism that one man's freedom is not necessarily anothers. Those who love to walk through the streets smoking may consider it a right, a part of their freedom but those who suffer as a result of stale smoke and dog-ends all over the place might well see it another way. They may well consider it discriminates against their right to clean air.

Never easy

My point exactly Soundings "their right to clean air"

So what pollutes the air most, a man walking through the streets smoking or a car driving, once the genie is out of the bottle.

[Soundings]

It is irrelevant what pollutes, it is how governments/public opinion will deal with it. Cars, vans, buses, trains etc are necessary to keep the wheels of the economy turning and to provide personal transportation. Investment will be made in reducing emissions and in finding other ways to propel motorised vehicles. Smoking however does nothing to drive the wider economy and there is a compelling argument that it works against it due to its adverse effect on health. Indeed it could also be argued that an alternative has been found already in these vapour things a lot of people use.

Returning to transport, I can see none essential vehicles being banned from all city/town centres. It will all be out of town parking; park and ride will rule ok. I already use it whenever I go to Norwich. Such a course makes perfect sense and will alleviate if not completely eliminate city/town centre congestion. 

The genie is already out of the bottle. It is now just a matter of time.

[NorfolkNog]

I know its not for me to say and I'll probably get into trouble for saying it. This is a very interesting thread to which I have contributed some lesser ramblings.

However it has developed from a discussion about the Ferry specifically, into an interesting debate about pubs generally and latter half of the thread about smoking in pubs.

Would it be worth splitting the thread as anyone  reading about the Ferry at Stokesby might be getting a bit confused by now????

[Gracie]

I think they should allow smoking in the Ferry Inn at Stokesby............there, better now Mr Nog lol  

Grace

p.s I don't think you could get into trouble with anyone Howard, except maybe Mrs Nog