I Always Use One Of These

[Vaughan]

Please don't misunderstand me - if you want to wear an anchor light, you are welcome, and someone here has already recommended where to buy one. Just to remind you it is not a masthead light : it is worn in the fore-part of the vessel and even a 100,000 ton container ship at anchor is only required to show two all-round white lights.

I still contend that a large white hulled motor cruiser on a mud weight would have been clearly visible on a Broad at night.

You only have to look at the EDP photo of the serious damage to the stern of that cruiser to see that the speed limit was indeed, largely material in this case.

My question was provoked by a suggestion that the laws are stupid. So if the opinion here is now that everyone has got to show anchor lights - even when moored on a buoy on Wroxham Broad - then up to you to change the law.

[MauriceMynah]

Sorry Vaughan, I didn't make it clear what I meant. Yes with the damage to both the boats and injuries to the people, speed is almost certainly the overriding factor lack of visibility a close second, what I was trying to say that it was not material to the subject of whether displaying an anchor light should be law. As with so many other things I believe it should not. (even though I was ... no am... thinking of doing so.)

 

 

[grendel]

4 hours ago, BroadAmbition said:

Erm that flag ain't been flown from 'B.A's mast for years now.  We do have an updated house flag, which means of course now I'll have to try and find a picture of that too

Griff

here is most of it - from the trip down from Stalham on the 19th July

[grendel]

Heres a better one from the 20th July

[BroadAmbition]

Whatever the sped of the rib.  If that cabin cruiser had been showing an all round white light then the collision would have been avoided simples.  Also simples is the wording of masthead / anchor tonnage etc.  Do we really need common sense precautions written down before they are adhered to?  Apparently sadly so it seems.

Grendel - Tks for the pics

Griff

[kfurbank]

41 minutes ago, BroadAmbition said:

Whatever the sped of the rib.  If that cabin cruiser had been showing an all round white light then the collision would have been avoided simples. 

It would be nice to think that were the case, however how many accidents still occur in cars in 30mph zones, at night, with the street lights on? All manner of other factors can play a part. Only the official investigations will come close to revealing the true answers here, so best left to them.

However something that Vaughan raised got me thinking. How often have you seen a hire boat go past you at somewhere like Stracy Arms, or Stokesby, at night, and you think, they'll never make Yarmouth in daylight? Whilst I'm not for one minute advocating that hire boats should be allowed to navigate at night legally, should there be a case for them being fitted with all round night lights, and nav lights in case they get caught out searching for a mooring late at night? If someone insists on cruising after dark, better they have the lights to be seen, than have none they can turn on?   

 

[dnks34]

In our case we have an anchor light or all round white light but due to our canopy if our boat is stern to anything approaching theres a good chance it wont be visible.  

I have always intended to mudweight over night on the broads but never got around to it.

In view of this unfortunate event I would probably leave all my nav lights on now just to ensure our safety but on the broads it really shouldnt be necessary in my opinion. 

 

[Springsong]

I have only just caught up with this thread, the only likeness to Corben and me is that I only just caught up with what is happening, Chris B I am mortally offended. 

[ChrisB]

16 minutes ago, springsong said:

I have only just caught up with this thread, the only likeness to Corben and me is that I only just caught up with what is happening, Chris B I am mortally offended. 

I have booked an appointment at Lings in North Walsham. In the meantime my only defence is poor eyesight. I most humbly appologise and beg forgiveness.

[MauriceMynah]

dnks34, Please don't overreact to this issue, the incident was very VERY rare. It appears that the rib was going too fast, in the dark and beyond the helmsmans limits of vision. 

As has been said here and on other threads this isn't the place to discuss the faults of those involved but I cant imagine much in the way of argument of the above... misjudgements and.mistakes were made, nuff said!

If some chose to show anchor lights then fair enough, if others choose not to,FOR WHATEVER REASON, that is their choice.

It is everybody's (the general publics) responsibility to ensure their own safety (and that of those in their charge) It is NOT their responsibility to ensure the safety of other people, especially if those other people are breaking the rules.

Now! before people jump down my throat on that one, this is a general rule of thumb, there are of course many exceptions. Further, whilst it may not be a persons responsibility, they may feel a 'duty of care' but that is different.

Water is dangerous stuff, boating on it increases the danger. Do your own risk assessment and act accordingly, but do it for yourself not for those around you. People will always do stupid things, we all do from time to time. the more we do them the more likely we are to get hurt. That's life.

[Viking23]

I have made a simple anchor light, its fitted to the top of a forum flag. I used a clear well, opaque white plastic type cork or stopper from a sparkling wine bottle. it is just visible for 360 degrees and above the canopy. This is the type of stopper below, but mounted the other way up. 

It consists of a very low power super bright white LED cluster ( led bulb for short lol) the effect is really outstanding. As it's not a legal requirement, it doesn't need to comply with any CE regs or collision regs etc.

I use it on the Broads when mud weighted, even if outside the marked channel, as there can be a tendency to wake up in a different location, when the wind gets up, especially on Barton Broad lol.

Richard

 

[Viking23]

25 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

...Water is dangerous stuff, boating on it increases the danger. Do your own risk assessment and act accordingly, but do it for yourself not for those around you. People will always do stupid things, we all do from time to time. the more we do them the more likely we are to get hurt. That's life.

Hi MM I agree with your post, but just to clarify one detail, "do it for your self not those around you" I know you mean people outside your control, but as skipper you are responsible for the crew and passengers around you, ie on your boat.  A detail I know, but worth pointing out. This point will be key in the boat collision incident.

Richard

[JennyMorgan]

Re that accident, I go with MM's take on this one, I really don't think an anchor light would have made a jot of a difference in this instance but if folk really want them then those solar lights sold for the garden can make darn good ones.

[Viking23]

1 minute ago, JennyMorgan said:

Some solar lights sold for the garden make darn good anchor lights.

Re that accident, I go with MM's take on this one, I really don't think an anchor light would have made a jot of a difference in this instance but if folk really want them then those solar lights sold for the garden can make darn good ones.

Saw some in the Pound Shop, can't remember the price lol...

[JennyMorgan]

5 minutes ago, Viking23 said:

Saw some in the Pound Shop, can't remember the price lol...

99p I think!

The really cheap ones don't last the night but at about four or five quid they generally do, even in the winter.

[MauriceMynah]

28 minutes ago, Viking23 said:

but as skipper you are responsible for the crew and passengers around you, ie on your boat.

I covered that with ...

1 hour ago, MauriceMynah said:

It is everybody's (the general publics) responsibility to ensure their own safety (and that of those in their charge)

However, I do not necessarily believe I am legally responsible for the actions of guests I have on board my boat. I may well have a 'duty of care' but as I stated earlier, that's different.

[Vaughan]

49 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

However, I do not necessarily believe I am legally responsible for the actions of guests I have on board my boat. I may well have a 'duty of care' but as I stated earlier, that's different.

Good question.

Better ask Mike Barnes of Maidie. If he were legally responsible for the actions of his crew he'd be bust by now!

[JennyMorgan]

Vaughan, legend has it that it was the other way around! 

[Vaughan]

I have read all your comments with interest and then went to look up my copies of the Admiralty Manual of Seamanship, vols 1 and 2, known to afficionados as the Steamship Manual. I then found that the rules had been reviewed and radically changed in 1964, the same year as I passed all my navigation exams! So as I said earlier, I am way of date.

There is one valid point though. There are lights and shapes for ships at anchor but in a naval harbour there are lots of small craft, harbour launches, that ply between the ships and the shore at all hours. The only light required for these vessels was a hand lamp (a torch) which could be shown "in time to avoid a collision". The Commissioners, as a traditional port authority, always regarded this rule as sufficient for the few cruisers driving at night on the Broads. Hire boats have always been banned at night.

So I grew up in an era when the only boats fitted with lights were those that might also go out to sea and everyone else went around with nothing on. If you see what I mean.

The very good reason for this, as I said before, is that nav lights will throw up a haze on the water and you can't see the river properly. So bizarrely, it was safer not to use them.

I am only saying all this to try and explain why anchor lights have never been seen as a requirement on the Broads and personally, it doesn't sound as though they would have made any difference to what happened last week. 

As to hire boats, as I also said earlier, all hire boats in the rest of Europe are fitted with nav lights and an anchor light, by law of ERCD regulations, (category D for inland waterways) and officially, this should also apply to the UK, so I imagine there must be an agreed exclusion clause in the BSS standards.

I agree with Kfurbank's thinking, would it be safer if they had lights, but I am afraid hirers will be hirers, whatever you try to tell them for their own good, so if you give them nav lights you will simply encourage them to go blundering around in the dark!

[ChrisB]

In my sailing days I always carried a powerful lantern torch to light up my sails on night passage. More likely to be seen than the nav lights.

[marshman]

I agree again with PW and Vaughan - I doubt whether any kind of anchor light would have made any difference simply because whilst it shows overall position, it does not delineate size. We all assume the helm, whoever that might have been, did not see the boat?? That like a lot of this is mere speculation.

I think anchor lights on the Broads would be a total waste of space - I suspect we have all travelled at night on the rivers and IMHO the ambient light levels at this time of year are perfectly adequate to navigate by and see other other boats, especially at that time. What were the weather conditions? Heavy cloud, light cloud, clear? All are relevant and without that info its even more of a guess!

Lots of unanswered questions, some of which will ultimately come out in the wash, but lets not immediately assume what we don't know and suggest an unworkable "solution" !!!!

[Vaughan]

50 minutes ago, marshman said:

I doubt whether any kind of anchor light would have made any difference simply because whilst it shows overall position, it does not delineate size.

This is why an anchor light, when used correctly, is displayed in the forepart of the vessel. A ship at anchor outside a harbour will "stream" to its anchor according to the wind and tide and will change direction as the tide turns. The master of another ship seeing the light will know the tide and wind conditions and can therefore decide in which direction from the light, he is likely to find the rest of the other ship's hull and thus keep clear.

That's fine if you are anchored off Milford Haven but I can't see how this can apply to Oulton Broad in August, where the wind drops with nightfall, there is no tidal current and all the boats end up pointing in different directions!

[ChrisB]

But if you saw a white light and you were going full chat in a powerful planing boat, would you throttle back? I know I would with my family on board.

If you are the type that keeps them wide open nothing will help you.

If a light is shown, be it a riding light, cabin light, all round or even your navs in these days of low drain LEDs you are more likely to be seen than having none.

Or am I missing something here.

[marshman]

BUT you have not a clue to the circumstances so you cannot say that had that vessel had an anchor light, the RIB would have avoided it?

You could say that the anchor light was a distraction given that it may have been the first ever seen on Oulton - all total and utter speculation! Perhaps it was mistaken for something else or even if it had been lit, it could easily have been lost amongst clutter.

There are no guarantees in such circumstances and thinking you know the circumstances or that an anchor light could have avoided it it, is again a pure guess at this moment in time.

[MauriceMynah]

2 hours ago, marshman said:

We all assume the helm, whoever that might have been, did not see the boat?? That like a lot of this is mere speculation.

Now there's a novel thought !!!