The More I Find Out The Less I Know

[MauriceMynah]

So! I had this idea for a bit of a project for my boat. I wasn't over happy with the instrument panal on Nyx. In fact I never really have been. Since then a generous forum member gave me a manufacturers (Beta Marine) instrument plate with one large hole, about 3.5" (rev counter) three smaller holes about 2" and several half inch holes for warning lights. It also has the appropriate holes for the stop button and the ignition key. Great I thinks to myself, all I need to get are the instruments and I'm away. Not so fast sunshine!!! you need senders too. That's when I started to do some research, that inturn replaced each of my questions with several more.

I have the rev counter already, just a case of moving it to the new panal. but it's the others that are causing me worries. I have decided to have an oil pressure guage, a coolant water temp guage, and an ammeter. If anyone thinks of a better combination, please do say.

I have found out that there is the American system and the European system. I am going for the European one.

WORRY No 1   I find that there are two sizes of thread for the senders, They are both 1/8th inch but one is NPT the other is BSP. I do not know the difference between those threads nor do I know what the Beta uses. Can anybody help me there please.

WORRY No 2   I would like to have an audible warning as well as the dial for both the oil and the water temp. I think I've found the 'splitter' for the oil, but can find nothing to split the water temp to enable both the alarm switch and the guage. Again, any advice would be most welcomed

WORRY No 3   I have found oil pressure senders and guages that goup to 5-bar, 10-bar and even 25-bar. Which one do I need?

Finally (and if you believe that you'll believe anything) I have been looking at ASAP supplies. does anyone recommend them or would advise me to avoid them?

Many many thanks to anyone who will assist me here.

[MauriceMynah]

Ok, Google has helped me a bit here, I have established the difference is between BSP and NPT, but still don't know which one Beta Marine uses.

Also as many know, I still sometimes read (though no longer contribute to) the 'other place' as I have friends who still use it. I have gleaned some info there too as another member has a similar problem.

[Wussername]

Worry not dear chap.......................................buy a sailing jobby.

Andrew

[Vaughan]

MM, 

The Beta is the same as the Nanni, so you will get all you need from Peachments in Brundall. Or from ASAP, but Peachment would be simpler as they can simply hand it to you over the counter.

If you want a warning light (or buzzer) as well as the gauge then you need a sender with two terminals for the oil, as well as the water temp, but for this you can also fit two senders, one at the front of the head, and one at the rear.

Don't fit an ammeter, or you will have to pass the whole domestic circuit up through the dashboard. Fit a volt-meter, which is a simple question of passing a current from the key, through the gauge, and to the nearest negative.

Don't worry about threads as Peachment will supply the right parts.

The rev counter needs a positive feed from the key, a return to the negative, and a third wire to the alternator.

Have fun!

 

 

 

[BroadScot]

2 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

MM, 

The Beta is the same as the Nanni, so you will get all you need from Peachments in Brundall. Or from ASAP, but Peachment would be simpler as they can simply hand it to you over the counter.

If you want a warning light (or buzzer) as well as the gauge then you need a sender with two terminals for the oil, as well as the water temp, but for this you can also fit two senders, one at the front of the head, and one at the rear.

Don't fit an ammeter, or you will have to pass the whole domestic circuit up through the dashboard. Fit a volt-meter, which is a simple question of passing a current from the key, through the gauge, and to the nearest negative.

Don't worry about threads as Peachment will supply the right parts.

The rev counter needs a positive feed from the key, a return to the negative, and a third wire to the alternator.

Have fun!

 

 

 

Orrrrrr you could pop over Vaughan and complete the installation while MM checks out the P B Inn ! 

[Vaughan]

Just had a thought - You said the panel is Beta, but what is your engine? Anyway, just tell Peachments and they will sort it.

[Vaughan]

12 minutes ago, BroadScot said:

Orrrrrr you could pop over Vaughan and complete the installation while MM checks out the P B Inn ! 

Well, with the right parts to hand and no complications. . . 

I should think MM and I would spend more time in the Buck afterwards than the job would take!

[ExUserGone]

If I remember correctly the difference between 1/8 npt and bsp is the angle of the thread, one is 55 degree and one is 60 degree, a bit of ptfe and they are interchangable, some of the threads have a slightly different tpi but I think 1/8 is the same.

You can get tee adaptors easily enough for an extra switch to give audible alarm.

I doubt you will get more than 5 bar oil pressure (73psi) unless you thrash it when cold, that's a bad idea anyway.

[MauriceMynah]

Thanks for the info Vaughan, the engine is indeed a Beta. Where exactly is Peachments? ... come to that I'm not that sure how to get to Brundel by road, only ever been there by boat!

[dnks34]

Peachments is on Riverside Estate, go over the railway crossing, past the pub, past the entrance to Brundall Bay marina on your left and you will see Peachments Building on your left.

for your gauges theres also asap-supplies at Ellough near beccles, they have a website and then theres Brian Wards just by the level crossing in Brundall 

[BroadScot]

NBN Discount at Brian Wards ....MM

Iain

[JanetAnne]

Have used Faria (through ASAP) many times and always been really pleased with them. They are American based and the units seem really good quality though can be a tad expensive.

I'd go with Vaughan's advice ref ammeter v voltmeter. With modern alternators having very high outputs that's a lot of amps travelling up to the dashboard and back again to the battery bank. Most ammeters run up to 60 amps (see below) which means the more usual 75 amp alternator will have the needle banging on the stop when you start the engine until it all settles down. A voltmeter will still show when a charge is being generated (it will read about 14v when the engine is running).

 

[JanetAnne]

Meant to say, Brian Wards do a limited Faria range ref NBN discount

[dnks34]

I have renewed a number of our old gauges with Faria units from ASAP and also been very happy with them as JanetAnne says.  

There are many different gauges to choose with different styles  and they also stock the relavant sender units etc.  

The website is comprehensive, for anyone who doesnt know of them its:

www.asap-supplies.com

It started out as mail order only, they offer a click and collect service (like argos!) if your local.  Last time i went in a few weeks ago they had turned the tiny collection desk room into a new large counter service room with items on display, much like a motor factors and an employee told me they were moving away from mail order only and were gearing up to cater for drop in custom to.   Prices dont seem bad and they are always worth checking out if theres something your looking for.  

 

[ZimbiIV]

MM, It would be easier and less stressful to throw that FREE panel away, BUT the bug has bitten you and it is probably too late.

I wish you luck and keep us informed.

They do not need to come from expensive marine suppliers, car instruments are basically the same. Try the auction sites, Halfords or breakers yards.

paul

[Vaughan]

I have been thinking overnight (as one does) and if your engine is a Beta, it may already have senders on it, fitted by the factory, in which case the worst part of the job is done!

[MauriceMynah]

ZimbilV, Halfrauds is a good idea, I'll have a look there. Are the sender units universal? (for car/marine). Your first point about my not really needing dials, Partly yes I like dials so the bug has bitten, but mainly, especially with the engine temp, it's good to keep to know what the engine is doing if for example one is gunning it a bit over Breydon.

Vaughan, Good point. As I already have warning lights and I suspect an audible alarm for oil pressure and water temp, there must be sender switches there, but I don't think 'switches' do the same job as senders for dials, and I'm after both.

[Regulo]

I'd just like to stick my two pen'north in, if I may. I do like to have an ammeter as well as a voltmeter. If your batteries are failing, with just a voltmeter that indicates only when the engine is running (as most do), you won't know about it. The voltmeter is effectively monitoring the alternator charging voltage. An ammeter can give an early indication of trouble. I have fitted digital volt and amp meters to Sunbird to both the domestic and engine batteries, and they can be "live" at any time via a panel switch. Thus I can check what amps are going in and out of the domestic battery, and what amps are going in to the engine battery. You'd need a whopper of an ammeter to see what comes out of the engine battery! On the electrical side of things, this is relatively easy to do and is much more comprehensive than just a voltmeter.

Edit: The digital ammeters use a shunt, so no need for long heavy duty cabling to the instrument itself. Just insert the shunt at a convenient point in the wiring.

[LondonRascal]

I’d say it was essential for boats to have some kind of battery monitoring system – because without one you have absolutely no idea what is going on as regard to charge and discharge.

Last through such a system on Broad Ambition we were able to see that we were having the start of an issue with our battery bank through such a system. However, while we are able to monitor several aspects such as the amperage output of each alternator, the discharge rate of different battery banks there are simpler systems which will provide you with a percentage of available battery capacity, and time to discharge and the voltage of the battery bank.

For a smidge over £100.00 the unit below is well worth investing in because at a glance your see how much capacity you have, and how different loads affect your batteries. 

 

Link to buy

What it does not do is manage your battery system – another important thing to consider which will vary the charge rate to the batteries based on their need – so as the batteries come closer to being fully re-charged, the system will switch to trickle charge them so as to help the longevity of what can often be an expensive part of boat ownership – the battery bank. Such a system can bee seen here from Sterling.

[MauriceMynah]

THe 'Stirling' unit is rather advanced for my simple brain and all I really need to know is that the alternator is working and that the batteries are taking a charge. Everything else is a bonus.

[Vaughan]

A sender will do one of two jobs :

As a switch, it will make a circuit when oil pressure falls or temperature rises, and this will work a warning light or buzzer. They are pre-set to the required figure, so they must be compatible with the engine.

As a sender for a gauge, it will let through a variable voltage as the temp rises (or pressure falls) to which the gauge will react.

Therefore the senders must be compatible with the gauges.

I am assuming your boat is wired "earth return"? In other words, the engine is the earth? if not it gets more complicated.

A sender with two terminals will perform both functions (one for the light and one for the gauge) but most engines will have enough drillings in the main oil gallery and the cylinder head, to fit two senders for each.

Senders can be used for other purposes, with good effect. Wilds built boats where the charge splitter was worked by an oil pressure sender, through a relay. Very efficient.

So if your boat already has senders, it is easy. Just go to Peachments and they will know the right gauges to supply. Their gauges will be VDO which are well known. You need to check rather more carefully if you are going to buy on line.

My advice, keep it basic.

[MauriceMynah]

Sorry to be such a thicko Vaughan, but I have found some senders that have two terminals that are designed for boats with two helms (thus two control panals). I'm not sure I've read you correctly but are you saying that if I were to get one of those, I could use one of the outputs to a guage the other to the alarm?

I would dearly love to go to Peachments and ask them these questions, but it's a two hour drive and I'm bound to forget what it was I was going to ask when I got there!

 

[TheQ]

This unit to monitor your battery is somewhat cheaper

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DC-6-5-100V-0-100A-Voltage-Current-Power-Energy-Combo-Meter-Car-Battery-Monitor-/162083223100?hash=item25bce9b63c:g:260AAOSw6btXRnFG

[Regulo]

MM, the ones with two terminals for dual helms are effectively two separate senders. The one you want will have two terminals, but one will be a sender output, the other a switch output for a warning light/sounder. Gets more complicated by the minute, doesn't it?

[MauriceMynah]

39 minutes ago, Regulo said:

Gets more complicated by the minute, doesn't it?

By jingo It surely do. Now, Is there such an animal as the one you so describe?