Independence - Updates | Maintenance & Care

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, LondonRascal said:

That is correct, and also why it does not do well to mix and match different battery types - but I am not too worried about the charge rate, currently the Alternators only can put in 55Amps each at best, and the battery charger 80Amps when on shore power. The modest increase to 120Amps with the new charger is nothing too great of a change and it will just need a one time set up to know the capacity and type of batteries it is to connected to.

If I was to own a boat that did a lot cruising away from shore power provision, and indeed had no generator on board,  then I would have opted for Lithium cells. Not only will they stand a higher charge rate than Lead Acid to you can re-charge them faster, but (and more importantly) can discharge very rapidly with a high load without the voltage fluctuating or 'giving up the ghost'. They tend to supply the current demanded until they are very low on their capacity where the voltage will decay more and will then cut off, which is the battery management system stepping in.

This sort of set up would be great if you had a boat which, like Independence (and now an increasing number of hire boats) have no gas system installed. If you had an overall capacity of say 800Ah but you were going to have an electric fan assisted oven and hob run off these, coupled with say an electric kettle and toaster, then the moment you go asking the battery back via an Inverter to run the oven, and a couple of rings on the hob then the poor old Lead Acid cells would have a fit dumping so much amperage out of them so quickly.  Lithium would be far more stable.

There is a good comparison running a fan heater as a load across different battery types to give a better outline of what I am referring to:

 

Hang on a minute your buying gell battery's not lithium ones , so rather an unfair comparison really , and its not just mixing battery types that's a bad idea but also capacities in the same bank of battery's .

I'm not denying that cells have a place or any other type but they all have there limitations .

Battery's are often in difficult to get to areas hence gell and any maintenance free battery is a good idea , but the boat owner has to  accept that you can't charge them as fast as lead acid or indeed as fast as AGM battery's , lithium battery's you can charge fast as anyone in the construction industry knows now a days.

Horses for courses really but no one type of battery is superior to any other in all areas which was my point .

BTW your existing battery's sound to me like they are very much past there best and although this might sound like advice its purely what I would do , and that's replace them asap as the last thing you need is an internal short as that's potentially an explosion n trust me you don't want to be anywhere near that having seen one happen .

[YnysMon]

Well, I missed my moment. I thought, good on you Robin for dismissing the gender thing, but it all went downhill from there!

Helen

[grendel]

40 minutes ago, Ricardo said:

the last thing you need is an internal short as that's potentially an explosion n trust me you don't want to be anywhere near that having seen one happen .

Me too, I had a van battery on charge, took it off charge and 10 minutes later went to start the van, boom, battery shrapnel and acid everywhere, fortunately that van had the battery in the engine bay not under the drivers seat.

[Guest]

40 minutes ago, grendel said:

Me too, I had a van battery on charge, took it off charge and 10 minutes later went to start the van, boom, battery shrapnel and acid everywhere, fortunately that van had the battery in the engine bay not under the drivers seat.

Exactly iv seen it twice n once at very close quarters and I hope not to again its frightening n its not the bang its the acid that scares you + cleaning up is bad news too , probably why battery's are so high on the agenda regarding BSS , a lot of regulations to follow in that instance , for good reason .

[vanessan]

1 hour ago, YnysMon said:

Well, I missed my moment. I thought, good on you Robin for dismissing the gender thing, but it all went downhill from there!

Helen

I think Robin went back to his priorites Helen, either that or he felt on shaky ground. 

[YnysMon]

He, he, it was all your fault Vanessan for starting the rot!

Thought you might have stood up for us females! 

[LondonRascal]

Grendal said:

Quote

"Robin, a while back you were interested in your consumption, In the video above there is an OWL meter (wireless meter) connected to the system under load, this is what I use at home to see how much power I am using at any one time, a clip clips around the cable making the metering circuit, a wireless transmitter sends the result to the unit shown in the video that reads out your usage mine is an old one, they do more modern ones now that can be remotely monitored."

I have got an Owl Energy meter - fitted just before we left Plymouth. . At rest, the boast is consuming about 218w to 238w. A good chunk of that is going on my two battery chargers - one for the main batteries, the other for the RIB.

Then there is the entrainment services being three televisions, a Sky Box, a DVD player and other bits with LED lights that are always on that I don't really understand but that are all powered up continuously. The lack of foresight of those who installed all this means  one cannot turn it off as there are no plug sockets - it is all hard wired in with un-switched sockets so the whole lot is in standby  and if you turn off the supply to the boats sockets in the saloon and cabins at the AC distribution panel, you take out the engine room sockets which power the newly thermometer controlled tube heaters. So I have little choice until this is all ripped out and re-modelled - another project for the Spring and Summer.

Recardo added to the thread:

Quote

" Hang on a minute your buying gell battery's not lithium ones , so rather an unfair comparison really , and its not just mixing battery types that's a bad idea but also capacities in the same bank of battery's ."

The very reason I am posting  about batteries is because a few days back I also posted about batteries, and today I posted (more as confirmation) that I would not be going down the Lithium route but did confirm the the brand of battery and type of battery I would be getting along with the type and brand of combined Inverter Charger.

I am making the comparisons for those (and I am sure there are some who read this) who do not know the comparisons and 'real world bench tests' of the battery chemistries and how 100Ah means little if you have a need to rapidly discharge a battery at a high amperage. I gave a good example too - a boat without gas such as Independence. Now  if I was to have a boat without gas which would be my preference, and this was to spend time away from shore power connections Lithium is the way I would go no question about it.

I hope It also helps people understand the 'value' of Lithium over other battery technology - faster charge times, longer life, able to withstand high discharge currents and give an idea as to why 100Ah Lithium battery cost so so much more than a compared Lead Acid battery with the same capacity.

And went on to say:

Quote

"BTW your existing battery's sound to me like they are very much past there best and although this might sound like advice its purely what I would do , and that's replace them asap as the last thing you need is an internal short as that's potentially an explosion n trust me you don't want to be anywhere near that having seen one happen"

And I agree with you, but this is the very reason an update to the thread was made to share the fact this is all going to happen as soon as possible through Norfolk Yacht Agency's Service team. The earliest they can get to me is Monday, I hope that progress can swiftly be made with these upgrades along with sorting any issues Tim comes up with after his BSS examination and NYA can surly assist me there too.

Now, generally speaking, I am not worried about how quickly I can put charge into the batteries, because in all honesty they won't get much use . When I am off shore power then the engine Alternators are going to replenish them - for longer periods when underway the generator is run to provide power for everything from the far better and brighter 240v engine room lights, to being able to boil a kettle or microwave a pie.  What would be lovely is not having to run the generator, to keep a simple Laptop powered up and camera battery chargers going. An Inverter would also to act as a back up should the generator go offline - like when sea water came in around the latch of the only opening window on the boat and into a poorly placed electrical socket beneath it - since changed.

I post in a way that might seem over long winded, covering more detail than it ought or touching on subjects that are just to the peripheries of what I am personally doing simply to give some a better overall idea on why I am taking the action I am - for example in this case why I decided to change my mind and switch from my intended choice of Lithium batteries to GEL.

[Meantime]

It's worth mentioning that it's not so much the charge rate you need to change for the swap from flooded lead acid to gel, but the charge voltage. Most chargers will charge FLA at 14.8V to give the most capacity, but at this voltage it will cause gassing and loss of water which will need to be replaced. Since you don't have the option to replace the acid in gel or sealed lead acid you need to ensure the charge voltage doesn't exceed 14.4V the point at which gassing normally starts. Most chargers just have a setting for the type of battery and adjust the top charge voltage appropriately, but some just have a voltage setting and expect you to know the charge voltage the battery will take.

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, EastCoastIPA said:

It's worth mentioning that it's not so much the charge rate you need to change for the swap from flooded lead acid to gel, but the charge voltage. Most chargers will charge FLA at 14.8V to give the most capacity, but at this voltage it will cause gassing and loss of water which will need to be replaced. Since you don't have the option to replace the acid in gel or sealed lead acid you need to ensure the charge voltage doesn't exceed 14.4V the point at which gassing normally starts. Most chargers just have a setting for the type of battery and adjust the top charge voltage appropriately, but some just have a voltage setting and expect you to know the charge voltage the battery will take.

That was exactly my point in my earlier post while referring to fast charging as its something overlooked when changing battery types as ever single marine charger I've ever seen has settings for  gell , lead acid , open lead acid , and  AGM battery's and its important to get that setting correct  that said never seen one with a lithium setting so advice would need to be sort there I guess , standard alternators don't tend to give a full charge to the battery's but more like 80-90% thats where battery management systems take over by pulsing higher voltage which keeps the plates clean of sulphur just as smart chargers do hence the need for setting up correctly , boat electrics as really a huge subject and there's a lot of information out there from some extremely knowledgeable people some of whom I discussed things with when building my first living aboard boat , it must work iv recharged with a short 1 hr cruise this afternoon from 10 hrs of lights ,+ inverter usage last night + the fridge all day long  

[grendel]

I think Robin mentioned that he was getting a new charger - same make as the batteries, that would require setting to the battery type and capacity, so I dont believe he has overlooked this Ricardo.

[LondonRascal]

This is the link to the Charger/Inverter I am buying:

 https://www.es-store.co.uk/product_details.php?product=QUO12/3000-120-230V&description=Victron-Quattro-Sine-wave-multi-plus.-12V-3000VA-inverter--with-120-amp-charger&cat_desc=Victron-Quattro&cat_id=75&show_menu=23 

The manual can be likewise downloaded - this is pretty sophisticated and will work fine with GEL based batteries. I will also be getting this hooked up to the Victron GX Controller onboard I will be able to monitor real time data and also when away over the Web. I am also considering a Victron Isolation Transformer too. 

All the above said, if suddenly I change track and go for a different brand or type of battery that should not be ruled out and frankly some of my decisions make little sense. I dislike Vodafone because of the colour red they use has never struck a chord with me, likewise Victron being blue and uniform kind of reminds me of Apple - they suck you in and have a solution for anything you can think of electrically but know how best to charge for them as well. 

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, grendel said:

I think Robin mentioned that he was getting a new charger - same make as the batteries, that would require setting to the battery type and capacity, so I dont believe he has overlooked this Ricardo.

I don't believe I said he had but he has changed from lithium originally to AGM ( Monday ) to gell today , so I see no harm in mentioning it actually .

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, LondonRascal said:

This is the link to the Charger/Inverter I am buying:

 https://www.es-store.co.uk/product_details.php?product=QUO12/3000-120-230V&description=Victron-Quattro-Sine-wave-multi-plus.-12V-3000VA-inverter--with-120-amp-charger&cat_desc=Victron-Quattro&cat_id=75&show_menu=23 

The manual can be likewise downloaded - this is pretty sophisticated and will work fine with GEL based batteries. I will also be getting this hooked up to the Victron GX Controller onboard I will be able to monitor real time data and also when away over the Web. I am also considering a Victron Isolation Transformer too. 

All marine inverters are quite sophisticated bits of kit Robin ask anyone who's had one repaired as its often cheaper to replace it .

There is one thing you could possibly explain to me though , that's why rip out a charger that's working fine and would do with the new battery's just to gain an inverter where a separate inverter would do the job , thing is combining the 2 if one goes wrong and needs repair you lose both items for how ever long it is to get it sorted , just a thought .

[vanessan]

2 hours ago, YnysMon said:

He, he, it was all your fault Vanessan for starting the rot!

Thought you might have stood up for us females! 

I would eventually have done that having got one or two of the guys going. Trouble is engines and batteries take priority! And they know they can’t do without us anyway so the battle is won. Better keep this thread on track before we’re banned. 

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, vanessan said:

I would eventually have done that having got one or two of the guys going. Trouble is engines and batteries take priority! And they know they can’t do without us anyway so the battle is won. Better keep this thread on track before we’re banned. 

No one gets barred for talking sense surely 

[LondonRascal]

44 minutes ago, Ricardo said:

here is one thing you could possibly explain to me though , that's why rip out a charger that's working fine and would do with the new battery's just to gain an inverter where a separate inverter would do the job

Honestly because I like the network-ability of Victron products and the fact this brings the building blocks of a new larger system which I could add to in time and keep one brand and network to work from. 

I could easily just of added a stand alone Inverter and replaced the batteries like for like of course, but to me that does not move things forward and a lot of my future plans are about updating and upgrading. 

Small things like the continuing process of changing all the small plastic double sockets with fake brass surrounds with brushed stainless full size domestic ones that are switched. A small thing, but very handy none the less.

The added bonus too is Broad Ambition gets a pretty smart and higher capacity battery charger which in turn would mean a good base to expand things from should we wish to down the line on her. In March we will be fitting two large ‘walk over’ semi-flexible Solar Panels to Broad Ambition to replace the smaller single glass panel she has currently, so things don’t stand still there either.

 

 

 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, LondonRascal said:

Honestly because I like the network-ability of Victron products and the fact this brings the building blocks of a new larger system which I could add to in time and keep one brand and network to work from. 

I could easily just of added a stand alone Inverter and replaced the batteries like for like of course, but to me that does not move things forward and a lot of my future plans are about updating and upgrading. 

Small things like the continuing process of changing all the small plastic double sockets with fake brass surrounds with brushed stainless full size domestic ones that are switched. A small thing, but very handy none the less.

The added bonus too is Broad Ambition gets a pretty smart and higher capacity battery charger which in turn would mean a good base to expand things from should we wish to down the line on her. In March we will be fitting two large ‘walk over’ semi-flexible Solar Panels to Broad Ambition to replace the smaller single glass panel she has currently, so things don’t stand still there either.

 

 

 

Victron are very good iv had a voctron inverter n good unit , that said mastervolt also have a system you can add to as you with , the biggest advantage of the inverter you mentioned is the fact it can accept 2 ac inputs more or less all the others only accept 1 input , that said I still stand by the fact if anything happens to either inverter or charger both units are lost while repairs take place hence why most folk use 2 separate components .

Best not voice my opinion of flexible solar panels on less they have suddenly got a heck of a lot better recently but as for getting rid of fake brass socket that gets my vote 

 

[Islander]

Hi Robin, just read the spec on the Victron unit you are fitting. Well impressed with what you can do with it. We wouldn't need such a high output ourselves or could I justify the cost. Both our boats have Victron Centaur 30A chargers. One of which has been running for nearly 10 years. Lady Linda also has the Victron fet charge splitter  (I have my fingers crossed). She will also have a 260w solar panel into an mppt charge controller for when at St Olaves where we haven't a mains supply.

Hope all goes well at the weekend and Tim back on form. Please give him our regards and tell him I can get him a big discount at our Chiropractor should he need one.

Colin

[Guest]

13 hours ago, Ricardo said:

 

Best not voice my opinion of flexible solar panels on less they have suddenly got a heck of a lot better recently but as for getting rid of fake brass socket that gets my vote 

 

I would be interested to know if there is a good quality flexible panel available as the practical benefits are obvious compared to a framed one.  Also, on another note I'm Glad to see this thread back to fixing, upgrading and generally messing about on boats. My boat and Indy are at opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of size but interestingly the systems are the same really, just scaled up or down so a lot of stuff Robin talks about makes me think hmmm I need to look at that as well or is something I am already working on

[LondonRascal]

40Somthing: Just to let you know on Broad Ambition this is our Solar Panel set up:

• Two 100w semi-flexible panel's: http://amzn.eu/9xeebbW 
• One MPPT Solar Charge Controller: http://amzn.eu/g3RHe3C 
• One remote monitor: http://amzn.eu/cJTRzV8 

The benefit of the semi-flexible panel so far as our needs go is that we are not constantly worried one false move will cause a broken glass panel they also look better in profile being almost flush.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, LondonRascal said:

40Somthing: Just to let you know on Broad Ambition this is our Solar Panel set up:

• Two 100w semi-flexible panel's: http://amzn.eu/9xeebbW 
• One MPPT Solar Charge Controller: http://amzn.eu/g3RHe3C 
• One remote monitor: http://amzn.eu/cJTRzV8 

The benefit of the semi-flexible panel so far as our needs go is that we are not constantly worried one false move will cause a broken glass panel they also look better in profile being almost flush.

Thanks, there are so many products out there its handy to know of one that someone has actually bought and is using successfully.

[LondonRascal]

4 minutes ago, 40something said:

Thanks, there are so many products out there its handy to know of one that someone has actually bought and is using successfully.

Well we are not using it all - we are using the MPPT controller and remote monitor with the existing panel, but in March will fit the two new panels. I see no reason why this would not work though - we also used a local stainless steel fabricator to make two nice covers to protect and hide the wires and plastic control box on the upper side of the panel that could be knocked or walked over - an idea I saw from Barnes Brinkcraft boats, and indeed used the same company to have ours made (guess what I forgot their name now) but are local to the Broads.

I don't have any plans to use solar panels on Independence, but if you do get some panels ignore the wattage - it is all about the amps they can produce, and note that is 'best case' so will be less and small things effect their efficiency like a shadow over some of the cells, the angle in relation to the sun and so on. But if you want to keep a starter battery topped up and are on a mooring with no shore power they can be very handy.

[Guest]

We do have shore power both on our current mooring and where we are about to move to (I promise I'm not stalking you but Indy will be close by ) I have a 20A charger on the domestic bank, the starter Battery is fine as its protected by a VSR, I give it a manual charge occasionally but its always already full.

The reason I want a panel is for those longer periods away from 240v when, for example on a nice sunny day moored up somewhere the fridge, radio and a couple of phones on charge could all be effectively running off a panel or thereabouts, its just a nice feeling I think

[LondonRascal]

Warning - I am about to ask for some advice

Does anyone have any opinions on cleaners to clean an inflatable RIB tubes with? I am considering having it 'professionally valeted' and brought back to a sparkle (especially gel coat and seating) but before I go down that route want to give it a go with some of my own elbow grease.

[JennyMorgan]

Brick acid/patio cleaner and a pressure cleaner, job done!