marshman Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 And I for another, take an entirely differing view!! I love watching these "super cruisers" race and even you Mr Waller , must agree that they make for some stunning stunning shots! As a class it has continued to excite and to me the handicap system works as well as it could and indeed no worse than the PY - doesn't seem to put many off racing their boat if they want to . The 3RR race is a real mix and that works well and no one class seems to be at an advantage over another - isnt that what people want? Like everything though there will always be many sides to every story, and like it or not I disagree totally with Mr Waller and indeed Poppy - seems to work so why fiddle with it ? I would certainly be less of a spectacle with "that" ruling applied!!!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JennyMorgan Posted August 28, 2018 Author Share Posted August 28, 2018 I don't disagree with you, Marsh, but I am aware that at Oulton Broad, for example, we now rarely see 18+ handicap boats racing. Granted that we have a slow boat and a fast boat start, thus effectively some might argue that the cruiser fleet is already split into two sections if not different classes. Maybe there should be a race for the very slow boats. Like you I find the fast boats exciting but I'm also aware that the more humble members of the fleet are being excluded. In part I agree both with you and Poppy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppy Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 13 hours ago, JennyMorgan said: I've long held the view that the owner and crew should be required to cruise and live aboard their boats for a week and during that week be expected to pass under at least one fixed bridge. Tell that to the River Cruiser Class..... More of a 'clique' than any other group on the Broads I'm afraid . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppy Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 11 hours ago, marshman said: And I for another, take an entirely differing view!! I love watching these "super cruisers" race and even you Mr Waller , must agree that they make for some stunning stunning shots! As a class it has continued to excite and to me the handicap system works as well as it could and indeed no worse than the PY - doesn't seem to put many off racing their boat if they want to . The 3RR race is a real mix and that works well and no one class seems to be at an advantage over another - isnt that what people want? Like everything though there will always be many sides to every story, and like it or not I disagree totally with Mr Waller and indeed Poppy - seems to work so why fiddle with it ? I would certainly be less of a spectacle with "that" ruling applied!!!! And you could still watch "super cruisers" race if they were in a different class. There are many who believe that there is much wrong withi not least the RCC handicap system. Golfing handicaps, anyone ? Then there's the abominable 'provisional' stataus.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JennyMorgan Posted August 29, 2018 Author Share Posted August 29, 2018 I'm not going to criticise the handicapping system as such but I do see the provisional status as being long winded and open to abuse by those desperate to win. As for being a clique, why not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maysailor Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 1 hour ago, Poppy said: And you could still watch "super cruisers" race if they were in a different class. There are many who believe that there is much wrong withi not least the RCC handicap system. Golfing handicaps, anyone ? Then there's the abominable 'provisional' stataus.... I will firstly admit that I am a member of the RCC committee and have been for the last 5 years .I have only been a cruiser owner for the last 8 years having bought a cruiser out of the hire fleet. I do not recognise your assertion of it being a" clique" and I would be interested in what you find "abominable about the provisional handicap system" 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JennyMorgan Posted August 29, 2018 Author Share Posted August 29, 2018 4 minutes ago, maysailor said: I will firstly admit that I am a member of the RCC committee and have been for the last 5 years .I have only been a cruiser owner for the last 8 years having bought a cruiser out of the hire fleet. I do not recognise your assertion of it being a" clique" and I would be interested in what you find "abominable about the provisional handicap system" The provisional handicapping system is in theory a fair and reasonable system but is arguably over generous, perhaps it should be more prohibitive to start with. P.S. No way would I want your job! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maysailor Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 As far as the RCC is concerned all boats with provisional handicaps are eligible to compete in races but are not given a place in the final results. However we are not able to enforce this on individual clubs who might take a different view. Personally I have not taken part in any races over the last few years where provisional boats have been given a place. The last race I competed in where this did happen was the YNR about 5 years ago but subsequently the rules were changed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaughan Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 44 minutes ago, maysailor said: I will firstly admit that I am a member of the RCC committee and have been for the last 5 years And I had better admit that it was me who introduced the prototype of the present handicap system when I was Class captain in 1977! Until the 70s, there were only about 15 boats who raced regularly and mostly on Wroxham Broad. Handicaps were talked about over a pint in the club bar at the end of each season and it is quite true to say that if you didn't race on Wroxham Broad, you didn't get a handicap! All of a sudden it all changed, and everyone wanted to race a River Cruiser. There were not enough old ones to go round and so new ones were built. I was Captain for the first two years of the great Fibreglass debate and that was also when the design of the new cruiser "Storm" was first submitted. It was rejected then, but later approved. Sure enough, she was a completely unbeatable racing machine and changed the face of racing from then on. Is she really a River Cruiser? There are probably still different opinions on that one. This is probably why the faster boats soon adopted the "big rig" to try and beat her and it all snowballed from there. In "my day", cruisers fast and slow were fitted out for living on board. Evening Flight was a genuine 4 berth yacht and for Oulton Regatta we would arrive with all the gear and stores to live aboard for a week. We also raced to a 2% handicap, in that condition! All the other family boats were the same, such as Forester, Goldfish, June Bird, White Wings (also 2%) to name a few. Even Achievement was lived on by the Butcher family at regattas. Surely this is what a River Cruiser is for? Those who strip their boats out for faster racing are missing more than half the fun of it, in my view. Splitting into an A and B start is just because there are two many boats these days, to safely start on a fairly short start line. This should not affect handicaps. For me, I got more fun out of the close quarters battle that went on during the race, between boats of similar speed. It was more important to beat someone over the line, than who actually "won" on handicap. I am sure the fast end of the fleet still get the most fun out of getting first "gun" over the line. As I said earlier, at least the class is in a healthy state and has a strong future. I wonder what would have happened if we had made different decisions 40 years ago, and not allowed GRP, or new racing designs. Would the class have survived? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 Vaughan, We shall never know, but you can be certain that what you did do, worked, because the class is pretty strong. I'm not a huge fan of cruisers that don't look 'right', but when I race I'm not usually racing them. The "big boys" have their race and we have ours Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JennyMorgan Posted August 29, 2018 Author Share Posted August 29, 2018 Storm is for sale, if anyone fancies being a 'big boy"! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JennyMorgan Posted August 29, 2018 Author Share Posted August 29, 2018 4 hours ago, Vaughan said: As I said earlier, at least the class is in a healthy state and has a strong future. I wonder what would have happened if we had made different decisions 40 years ago, and not allowed GRP, or new racing designs. Would the class have survived? Fibre glass was inevitable and it was a wise move, the class is both innovative and healthy as a result. However, in my opinion, allowing boats or rigs that are totally impractical for cruising on the Broads was a negative move. Surely the clue is in the name, the River Cruiser Class. Anyway, not really our business, it is that of class members. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Ricko Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 19 hours ago, JennyMorgan said: I've long held the view that the owner and crew should be required to cruise and live aboard their boats for a week and during that week be expected to pass under at least one fixed bridge. i virtually live on mine before the 3RR every year and pass 2 bridges twice, thats why i can't deal with it for the rest of the year, I think the class is regarded as a clique is because virtually the same people meet up every other week and sail together, when they are not sailing they are talking about sailing, there is not one clique, there are a few groups but thats the same in any walk of life it just looks like it form the outside. I think at Wroxham you have to marry within the clique or join another club. 3 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppy Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 7 hours ago, maysailor said: I do not recognise your assertion of it being a" clique" and I would be interested in what you find "abominable about the provisional handicap system" Provisionals were introduced to stop boats 'coming out of the woodwork' and getting a result. Fact. As for 'cliques'. One boat name - Inseinity. It looks like an RC, It measures to the rules but it's ruled out of class.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JennyMorgan Posted August 29, 2018 Author Share Posted August 29, 2018 6 hours ago, C.Ricko said: I think at Wroxham you have to marry within the clique or join another club. Doesn't that lead to more yet inbreeding, Norfolk style? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finny Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 A very enjoyable thread thanks Peter .....one question - i notice a few of the boats have a quite large crews would that be a normal in a racing situation ? finny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JennyMorgan Posted August 29, 2018 Author Share Posted August 29, 2018 24 minutes ago, finny said: A very enjoyable thread thanks Peter .....one question - i notice a few of the boats have a quite large crews would that be a normal in a racing situation ? finny Movable ballast for one thing, lots of strings to pull for another. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Ricko Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 On 29/08/2018 at 21:25, finny said: A very enjoyable thread thanks Peter .....one question - i notice a few of the boats have a quite large crews would that be a normal in a racing situation ? finny friends, family, kids and dogs out for a sail. we had 7 crew on Raisena which was the least you needed in any wind to do well. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bexs Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 Just caught up on this thread, thank you for sharing such lovely photos. Sent from my iPhone using Norfolk Broads Network Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finny Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 11 hours ago, C.Ricko said: friends, family, kids and dogs out for a sail. we had 7 crew on Raisena which was the least you needed in any wind to do well. i never would have thought that - quite the opposite actually .....i take it the dog is the skipper finny 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroadAmbition Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 Just caught up on this thread, thank you for sharing such lovely photos I've been following this thread from the beginning. Thanks to for the photo's but more importantly to me thanks for you historians sharing this knowledge with us, enlightening us - Fascinating stuff all of it, we as forumites are so lucky to have living breathing witnesses to a bygone age brought right up to date Griff 5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marshman Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 You make Vaughan sound like Methuselah!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MauriceMynah Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 Nah, Vaughan ain't no meth user, wine yes, meth no. It is a very interesting thread though. :) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaughan Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 As Methusalah was the grandfather of Noah, at least there's a bit of boatbuilding history there. I think I am a bit more of a Norfolk prophet - "Cunfooshuss, he say!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MauriceMynah Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 Typical, bloody typical! You try to back someone up and they just go to make a prophet out of it. 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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