Loddon Staithe

[BroadAmbition]

I'm under the impression that providers - by that I mean landlords and those electric posts / the Ba  - are not allowed to make a profit on said electricity above what they pay for it - Is this correct?

Griff

[grendel]

that is correct, there are electricity regulator guidelines on the reselling of electricity that govern the resell costs, it falls under the guidelines for campsites and marinas reselling of electricity, same as landlords are not allowed to hike their electricity prices.

[SPEEDTRIPLE]

Yes, sorry, i did`nt phrase that correctly, i should have said, it`s NOT the UNIT charge that`s more, it`s the charge they make for PROVIDING that unit. Don`t forget your domestic bills have a unit charge, but also have a STANDING charge. This is (i think?) a sort of "providers fee", whereas because the posts don`t issue paperwork that shows unit usage and standing charges, it`s all in one. Any business is allowed to make a providers fee, that`s what retailers make over the fee they pay the wholesaler. I`m not making a very good job of trying to say what i`m trying to get at, but the jist of it is, the cost of electricity on the card operated posts is a unit charge plus providers fee all in one (i think?) ............................ and then there may be VAT to consider, could that be included in the charge?.

[Paladin]

15 minutes ago, SPEEDTRIPLE said:

Yes, sorry, i did`nt phrase that correctly, i should have said, it`s NOT the UNIT charge that`s more, it`s the charge they make for PROVIDING that unit. Don`t forget your domestic bills have a unit charge, but also have a STANDING charge. This is (i think?) a sort of "providers fee", whereas because the posts don`t issue paperwork that shows unit usage and standing charges, it`s all in one. Any business is allowed to make a providers fee, that`s what retailers make over the fee they pay the wholesaler. I`m not making a very good job of trying to say what i`m trying to get at, but the jist of it is, the cost of electricity on the card operated posts is a unit charge plus providers fee all in one (i think?) ............................ and then there may be VAT to consider, could that be included in the charge?.

When the BA changed over from cardboard cards to plastic cards, they introduced a 'hidden' charge to recover the extra cost of the new cards. So you didn't get £1-worth of electricity for your £1. This was robustly challenged and the BA eventually backed down, so you now get £1-worth of electricity at the standard rate, which will be slightly above the rate that many householders pay, if they have taken advantage of reduced fixed rate tariffs. The cost of the initial provision and subsequent maintenance of the pillars is borne by navigation money, so everyone contributes, whether or not they use the posts.

While a standing charge may be imposed, it has to be separate from the unit charge.

[SPEEDTRIPLE]

6 minutes ago, Paladin said:

When the BA changed over from cardboard cards to plastic cards, they introduced a 'hidden' charge to recover the extra cost of the new cards. So you didn't get £1-worth of electricity for your £1. This was robustly challenged and the BA eventually backed down, so you now get £1-worth of electricity at the standard rate, which will be slightly above the rate that many householders pay, if they have taken advantage of reduced fixed rate tariffs. The cost of the initial provision and subsequent maintenance of the pillars is borne by navigation money, so everyone contributes, whether or not they use the posts.

While a standing charge may be imposed, it has to be separate from the unit charge.

Thanks for clarifying that Paladin.  I was always under the impression we payed for the electric AND the upkeep of the posts in the card charge. 

[Malanka]

Has anyone noticed that previous years cards don’t give you 1.0 pounds if used now. Paladin is this still true after you mentioned we now get a pound. I remember it being 98p when plastic cards were first introduced. 

Cards from 2017 October used in 2018 Easter gave less than 1.0 on the meter. 

My thought was the software necessary to know the card was last years would cost more than the loss due to inflation. 

Anyone know the straight dope here.  Paladin ?????

[Paladin]

1 hour ago, Malanka said:

Has anyone noticed that previous years cards don’t give you 1.0 pounds if used now. Paladin is this still true after you mentioned we now get a pound. I remember it being 98p when plastic cards were first introduced. 

Cards from 2017 October used in 2018 Easter gave less than 1.0 on the meter. 

My thought was the software necessary to know the card was last years would cost more than the loss due to inflation. 

Anyone know the straight dope here.  Paladin ?????

There was a lengthy discussion at the time, on NBF. I'm not allowed to post a link here, though.

In a nutshell:

1. The meters were the same as domestic meters, which can give 'emergency' electricity if the green button is pressed (about 60p worth I think), which would be recovered from the next user. The BA have now altered the meters.

2. As HMRC take 5% vat, the charge on the card is 95p for electricity and 5p tax.

3. The cards should put £1 credit on the meter, regardless of when the card was purchased. But I have noticed that, occasionally, the meter will show a few pence debit (emergency electricity used by the previous user?) so you only get £1 less that debit showing on the meter.

[Malanka]

Many thanks Pally. 

We rarely have to accept the overage from previous users as we have adapters for all the connections. We give and take sometimes using someone’s 79p and sometimes leaving 79p. We don’t sweat it. 

Having a long extension helps too lol. We only really use the leccy for hot water if we haven’t cruised very far. Between LED lights and a lot of amp hours stored we don’t need it at all apart from that. 

 

M

[grendel]

yes they tried to aadd a standing charge until it was pointed out that this was illegal under the electricity supply regulations (it is specifically cited under the campsites and marinas section) it wasnt just a case of backing down, what they wanted to do was illegal and they could have been heavily fined for it.

[SPEEDTRIPLE]

18 minutes ago, grendel said:

yes they tried to aadd a standing charge until it was pointed out that this was illegal under the electricity supply regulations (it is specifically cited under the campsites and marinas section) it wasnt just a case of backing down, what they wanted to do was illegal and they could have been heavily fined for it.

The ones at Beccles are NOT card operated, so you pay for it in your overnight fee. The trouble is, you pay a fixed fee, so how does that work out re how much electricity you used, and what the legality of it is?.

[Paladin]

22 minutes ago, grendel said:

yes they tried to aadd a standing charge until it was pointed out that this was illegal under the electricity supply regulations (it is specifically cited under the campsites and marinas section) it wasnt just a case of backing down, what they wanted to do was illegal and they could have been heavily fined for it.

They 'backed down' in the sense that their solicitor, David Harris, initially tried to convince me that what the BA was doing was legal and that the Ofgem's directions did not apply to them, but he was subsequently persuaded otherwise.

This isn't the first time they have been caught acting outside the law!

[ZimbiIV]

If you use hook up at Beccles/Oulton do what we do recharge everything you have rechargeable.

£3.50 for hook up and leccy is a rip off we only use it if the gas is running low.

paul 

[grendel]

6 minutes ago, SPEEDTRIPLE said:

The ones at Beccles are NOT card operated, so you pay for it in your overnight fee. The trouble is, you pay a fixed fee, so how does that work out re how much electricity you used, and what the legality of it is?.

I believe in this instance as you are not paying for electricity used, you are paying to use the post, not buying the electric as you can use as much as you want.

[Paul]

There are some inaccuracies in recent posts, for clarity:

Firstly, making a "standing charge" for the use of electricity posts is not illegal as the posts are considered metering devices. A reseller of electricity is entitled to recover the cost of this metering along with the charge for electricity. If the meterage equipment if supplied by the power supply company this charge is subject to the Maximum Selling Price legislation in the same way as the energy used, however if it is supplied by a third party it is not subject to legislation.

Secondly the authority could not have faced fines, huge or otherwise for overcharging as their is no penalty applied to the Resale of Electricity, other than to allow purchasers of resold gas and electricity to recover any overcharge, plus interest at twice the standard Barclays rate. 

Thirdly, Ofgem confirmed in March 2014 that charging points for electric vehicles are not subject to the maximum resale price.

 

 

[grendel]

yes but riverside electric posts dont fall under the electric vehicle category, they fall under the section dealing with camp sites and marinas

[Paul]

20 minutes ago, grendel said:

yes but riverside electric posts dont fall under the electric vehicle category, they fall under the section dealing with camp sites and marinas

No they don't, they are supplied by the authority for the purpose of charging electric boats. This has always been their intended use and always been advocated by the authority. If end users choose to use them for other purposes then the authority cannot be held responsible for that misuse. 

Even if they were in a marina and intended to supply electricity for general use, the provider could still make what charge he see fit for the use of the post, as it is not supplied by the electricy provider.

 

[Paladin]

1 hour ago, Paul said:

There are some inaccuracies in recent posts, for clarity:

Firstly, making a "standing charge" for the use of electricity posts is not illegal as the posts are considered metering devices. A reseller of electricity is entitled to recover the cost of this metering along with the charge for electricity...

That is correct, but the standing charge must be separate from the cost of the electricity. The BA recovers the standing charge cost they pay to the supplier via the navigation budget.There is no additional charge to individual boaters who use the posts.

Secondly the authority could not have faced fines, huge or otherwise for overcharging as their is no penalty applied to the Resale of Electricity, other than to allow purchasers of resold gas and electricity to recover any overcharge, plus interest at twice the standard Barclays rate. 

This is also correct.

Thirdly, Ofgem confirmed in March 2014 that charging points for electric vehicles are not subject to the maximum resale price.

While that statement is correct, boats, electric or otherwise, are not ‘electric vehicles’ for these purposes.

 

This is a link to the Ofgem Direction on the maximum resale price of gas and electricity  https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/sites/default/files/docs/2014/03/mrp_direction.pdf

Paragraph 2 makes the following exclusion:

This direction does not apply where electricity supplied by an authorised supplier is resold by any person from a charge point for use by an electric motor vehicle.

Paragraph 10 provides definitions:

“electric motor vehicle” means a motor vehicle that uses electric drive to power or assist in the propulsion of the motor vehicle, other than an electric marine craft,

 “marine craft” includes a vessel, boat, hovercraft or any other description of water craft.

So boats are subject to the maximum resale price direction, and electric boats are specifically removed from the paragraph 2 exclusion..

 

[Paul]

Pally, you have shattered my illusion, here I was thinking the Broads Authority had given everyone that five pence back because they were nice people. 

The letter ofgem issued did not exclude marine craft, perhaps they issued an adendum. 

Of course we THINK they've given the 5p back, but has anyone ever checked the rate they are charging against that they are paying?

[Paladin]

20 minutes ago, Paul said:

Pally, you have shattered my illusion, here I was thinking the Broads Authority had given everyone that five pence back because they were nice people. 

The letter ofgem issued did not exclude marine craft, perhaps they issued an adendum. 

Of course we THINK they've given the 5p back, but has anyone ever checked the rate they are charging against that they are paying?

Paul, please accept my apologies. Perhaps I'd better not mention Santa Claus

I don't know which Ofgem letter you are referring to, but if it's this one https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/sites/default/files/docs/2014/03/mrp_decision.pdf it's fairly clear, although not specified, that they were referring to the charging points for electric cars, not boats. The appendix to the letter is the same direction as I posted a link to earlier, which makes it clearer that charging points for boats are not excluded from the maximum resale price rules.

I seldom use the BA charging posts, so I've never bothered to run a check on the rate. After my little contretemps  with the BA in 2017, they did tell me what they were charging (the legal charge, that is) per unit, but that will undoubtedly have gone up since then. They'll tell you the current rate if you ask them (some, most, of the staff are very helpful). You can then run your own tests to see if they have told you the truth.

[Meantime]

Just by way of an update. I happened to be in Loddon for one night this weekend. As most of you will know it was a tad windy this past weekend. Was hoping to be able to tuck into one of the two corners at the Loddon mooring to be able to also secure a bow rope off to a nearby post. No such luck, both corner spots taken by long term overstayers. In total there were three overstayers at Loddon and two at Pyes Mill. Somebody mentioned earlier on in this thread that it has been muted that the charge be £5 per night. I wonder if there would be such frequent overstaying if the charge was introduced? £35 a week suddenly seems a fair chunk.

I noted two other boats had overstayed at Brundall Church Fen and one at Bramerton.

Off course if charges are introduced at Loddon and even Pyes Mill, will this not just move the problem onto the other free BA moorings making them more congested?

Perhaps it is time for the BA to take proper control of this situation? I know it is a quiet time of the year and whilst these eight boats have overstayed, there is still space for others at this quiet time of year. However without a home mooring, the best that can be achieved is that in the high season they keep moving on within 24hrs, but ultimately they are going to land at another 24hr mooring somewhere, so which ever way you look at it, there is more or less permanently 8 24hr moorings in constant use and therefore not available to those who require a visitor mooring when away from their home berth.

The hire yards get charged a multiplier on the tolls for their boats. Perhaps the same should apply to any boat applying for a toll that cannot provide proof of a permanent home mooring for their boat? The extra revenue raised could then be used to fund some additional moorings to provide extra capacity. It may not be a popular move for some, but personally I'm getting sick and tired of paying all my dues, toll, insurance, home mooring, only to find the upper Yare to be almost impossible to moor at during the high season. Whitlingham and Commissioners Cut and to a large degree Bramerton always heavily abused leaving a large chunk of the Yare with little visitor moorings.

[Paul]

39 minutes ago, EastCoastIPA said:

Perhaps it is time for the BA to take proper control of this situation?

I think it's well past time .....

You raise some interesting points. The Canals & River Trust impose conditions on license holders without a home mooring to ensure that they are genuinely cruising the system, rather than staying in one place or backwards and forwards between two or more locations. If someone breaks the rules they get a warning, then their license revoked. Perhaps the Broads Authority should look at that model, and impose and, most importantly police, a similar model on the Broads. 

[JennyMorgan]

1 hour ago, Paul said:

If someone breaks the rules they get a warning, then their license revoked.

Be careful what you wish for! At the moment the Authority does not have the power to pick and choose who can navigate on a tidal water. Would you really want them to be able to? Where would it stop? 

[SPEEDTRIPLE]

2 hours ago, JennyMorgan said:

Be careful what you wish for! At the moment the Authority does not have the power to pick and choose who can navigate on a tidal water. Would you really want them to be able to? Where would it stop? 

An excellent point well made Peter. 

We all want these situations resolved, but it`s not an easy situation. I find overstayers tend to be on boats that look maybe a little untidy, as they`re liveaboards without permanent moorings, so have to keep everything on deck. This itself makes beautiful surroundings look scruffy, and so will drive people away, which could then encourage more overstayers, making the place look lkike a squat.

[Wussername]

My cousin has moored his cruiser on the Yare on the outskirts of Thorpe for several years. I met up with him several weeks ago and told that he has sold his boat. The reason being that he personally felt intimidated by the number of liveaboards. During one weekend in the summer he counted over 45 boats. Some of which were in very poor condition.

I went from Brundall to Norwich during late summer early autumn and counted 35 liveaboards. Neither of these counts included boats on the island at Thorpe.

As mentioned. Commissioners cut and Whitlingham on the north bank were both full.

Is this trend likely to become established with continued growth and if this should be the case should some form of disciplines be put in place, standards identified and implemented.

Andrew

[KaptinKev]

On ‎16‎/‎03‎/‎2019 at 08:00, grendel said:

that is correct, there are electricity regulator guidelines on the reselling of electricity that govern the resell costs, it falls under the guidelines for campsites and marinas reselling of electricity, same as landlords are not allowed to hike their electricity prices.

No they are not, but when you are responsible for providing a service, these costs have to be acquired from either moorings or rent.