How Much Mph Do Boats Need

[Speleologist]

6 hours ago, Vaughan said:

I rather doubt though, that someone in a kayak or on a paddle board (that is if they value their life) would be seen trying to go through Yarmouth Station, or under the bascule bridge on Breydon, where boats have to have enough engine power to stem the tide in safety.

At least I sincerely hope not!

 

I must say that I cannot agree with this, although I understand the sentiment. Firstly, boats do not have to have enough engine power to stem the tide. All that is required is the skill to plan around the tide times. I have hardly ever passed through Great Yarmouth in a boat with an engine, but have done so countless times and without incident in yachts with no engine. In a similar manner , although I have never passed through by kayak, I would not hesitate to do so. It is no problem with careful working of the tides. I have kayaked in far more difficult tidal water quite safely. (The Menai Strait for example). Provided the passage is approached with a clear understanding of the issues, choosing suitable weather and having a plan for getting it right, a passage through Great Yarmouth in an unpowered vessel of any sort should pose no difficulty to a suitably experienced person.

[rightsaidfred]

25 minutes ago, Speleologist said:

I must say that I cannot agree with this, although I understand the sentiment. Firstly, boats do not have to have enough engine power to stem the tide. All that is required is the skill to plan around the tide times. I have hardly ever passed through Great Yarmouth in a boat with an engine, but have done so countless times and without incident in yachts with no engine. In a similar manner , although I have never passed through by kayak, I would not hesitate to do so. It is no problem with careful working of the tides. I have kayaked in far more difficult tidal water quite safely. (The Menai Strait for example). Provided the passage is approached with a clear understanding of the issues, choosing suitable weather and having a plan for getting it right, a passage through Great Yarmouth in an unpowered vessel of any sort should pose no difficulty to a suitably experienced person.

Ah but in a lot of cases we are talking about inexperienced or relatively  inexperienced people and often ones who cannot pick and choose their weather conditions, even after 40 years I can get the tides wrong by an hour or so with changing weather patterns.

Fred

[Speleologist]

10 minutes ago, rightsaidfred said:

Ah but in a lot of cases we are talking about inexperienced or relatively  inexperienced people and often ones who cannot pick and choose their weather conditions, even after 40 years I can get the tides wrong by an hour or so with changing weather patterns.

Fred

It seems to me that adopting that approach risks bringing us all down to the level of the inexperienced. It is surely up to the individual to choose to operate within their capabilities, not for restrictions to be placed on activities that, with appropriate levels of skill, are perfectly safe.

There is also a tendency to see things in forums such as these in purely Broads terms. Passing through Great Yarmouth is relatively straightforward when compared with, for example, entering Tavares river. The whole of the Broads is straightforward when compared with navigating the Guadalquivir up to Sevilla.

My key message is that the assumption that one needs enough engine power for Great Yarmouth or that it is unsafe in a kayak or similar is a false assumption. It is only unsafe without the appropriate skills and experience. The same is equally true when in a powered craft, as evidenced by the number of motor boats that get into trouble.

[Mouldy]

4 hours ago, MauriceMynah said:

. . . . . . . . . Much the same could be said on the roads. Is there anybody (drivers only please) here who has not broken the speed limit on the roads? I doubt it. 

Exactly.  You can legislate as much as you like, but if anyone says they’ve never broken a law in their life, I simply wouldn’t believe them.  As far as speed limits on the roads I’m concerned, road going vehicles are fitted with speedometers, which should guide the driver to obey the limit, but few seem to understand how to read them.  How are folk supposed to then gauge the speed of a boat, when most are shown a dymo label on the dash saying that 4mph is at 1200rpm?

[RealWindmill]

4 hours ago, RealWindmill said:

it seems the judgement of skippers is not working.

We all seem to be saying the same things in different ways.

The concensus seems to be that instrumentation and Speed over Ground is not the answer as it doesn't solve the wash problem and the only solution is, as rightsaidfred advocates, is the Mark 1 eyeball checking the wash.

This is why i said skippers judgement isn't working as they patently aren't checking it in many cases.

[rightsaidfred]

4 minutes ago, Speleologist said:

It seems to me that adopting that approach risks bringing us all down to the level of the inexperienced. It is surely up to the individual to choose to operate within their capabilities, not for restrictions to be placed on activities that, with appropriate levels of skill, are perfectly safe.

There is also a tendency to see things in forums such as these in purely Broads terms. Passing through Great Yarmouth is relatively straightforward when compared with, for example, entering Tavares river. The whole of the Broads is straightforward when compared with navigating the Guadalquivir up to Sevilla.

My key message is that the assumption that one needs enough engine power for Great Yarmouth or that it is unsafe in a kayak or similar is a false assumption. It is only unsafe without the appropriate skills and experience. The same is equally true when in a powered craft, as evidenced by the number of motor boats that get into trouble.

But we talking about the Broads a holiday destination  enjoyed by Joe Bloggs not some far away lands, when it  comes to safety you cannot afford to sit on some lofty perch  I was always taught you need to take into account the lowest common denominator.

Fred 

 

[Speleologist]

1 minute ago, rightsaidfred said:

But we talking about the Broads a holiday destination  enjoyed by Joe Bloggs not some far away lands, when it  comes to safety you cannot afford to sit on some lofty perch  I was always taught you need to take into account the lowest common denominator.

Fred 

 

So are you advocating for restrictions for that lowest common denominator? As I have stated, iot is perfectly reasonable to take an unpowered craft through Great Yarmouth, provided that you have the skill. Should I be banned from doing so just because not everyone has the skill? I sincerely hope not. Advice not restriction is the way to go.

[Ray]

Wake and wash... believe it or not you can happily boat for your years and not be sure which you use to judge speed and bank erosion. Like me for instance!

So, if I'm right the wake is caused by the water displaced by your boat moving through the water. Isn't it this that causes the "waves" that can damage banks and give moored boats an unpleasant ride?

Wash being the turbulence behind the boat caused by the prop?

If nothing else comes from this thread if I get this straight in my head then it's been worth it!

(My default speed is slow to enjoy the rivers most, I have at times wished for a little more "oomph" when making the crossing though!)

[Vaughan]

18 minutes ago, Speleologist said:

There is also a tendency to see things in forums such as these in purely Broads terms.

Norfolk Broads Network.

The clue is in the name.

 

[rightsaidfred]

Just now, Speleologist said:

So are you advocating for restrictions for that lowest common denominator? As I have stated, iot is perfectly reasonable to take an unpowered craft through Great Yarmouth, provided that you have the skill. Should I be banned from doing so just because not everyone has the skill? I sincerely hope not. Advice not restriction is the way to go.

No just the opposite all I have said is that boats should not be restricted in power more than they already are, I have not commented on anything self propelled or wind blown.

Fred

 am saying that 

[Speleologist]

Just now, Vaughan said:

Norfolk Broads Network.

The clue is in the name.

 

I think you're missing my point there Vaughan. What I was trying to say is that we need to see the Broads as somewhere that is not an enclosed system but which has access to and from the sea. A seagoing vessel visiting the Broads is as much a part of the Broads as a Richardsons hire boat. Approaches to, for example, governing engines, need to take account of this.

[Vaughan]

17 minutes ago, Speleologist said:

Approaches to, for example, governing engines, need to take account of this.

OK, I think you are missing the point as well.  No-one is advocating that a sea-going vessel wishing to cruise on the Broads should have its speed governed.  No-one either, is advocating that private motor vessels should be speed limited.

Looking at the O.P.s first post, we are talking about limiting the speed of hire boats and I for one, know very well that whatever speed you give to a hirer, he is going to use it!  A lot of them only know two positions - full ahead or full astern.

And I am not trying to be flippant either.  I have spent most of my life in the very responsible position of having to make sure that the inland waterways boating experience, on whatever inland waterway you care to name, is as trouble free, safe and enjoyable as is practically possible.  Speed limiting is just one of those myriad considerations.

[grendel]

I think the answer is not restrictions, rather training and teaching, rather than arguing amongst ourselves we should be giving out advice to all these new people (the ones that are willing to listen are halfway to being good boaters anyway) in a book i read by one Arthur Ransome it was mentioned that the broads were a good school to learn to sail, and that is as true today as it has ever been.

if you see someone struggling, for goodness sake dont step back and watch and laugh, get in there and help them, and you may have an opportunity to pass on some of your wisdom. someone who becomes comfortable on the broads will come back for more, someone who strugles throuh their holiday with no help will find somewhere else to holiday next year.

[RealWindmill]

2 hours ago, Vaughan said:

 No-one is advocating that a sea-going vessel wishing to cruise on the Broads should have its speed governed.  No-one either, is advocating that private motor vessels should be speed limited.

I am.     

Why not ?

[Vaughan]

49 minutes ago, RealWindmill said:

I am.     

Why not ?

Such a fatuous remark deserves a response in kind.

So let's have a minimum speed limit for kayaks and paddleboards in a main river navigation, like they have on Belgian motorways.

I suggest 3 MPH.

Let's let the buggers paddle for it!!

[rightsaidfred]

25 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

Such a fatuous remark deserves a response in kind.

So let's have a minimum speed limit for kayaks and paddleboards in a main river navigation, like they have on Belgian motorways.

I suggest 3 MPH.

Let's let the buggers paddle for it!!

Either that or a good curry so they have some wind assistance.

Fred

[JennyMorgan]

23 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

I suggest 3 MPH.

Let's let the buggers paddle for it!!

Over Christmas, excess sprout assisted and with the Breydon tide under me I just might make 3.0001 m.p.h.!

[JanetAnne]

I can produce quite enough hot air without the need for Christmas veggies or a local takeaways assistance as I am sure many of you will agree 

[Turnoar]

Covid aside I wonder if there is a half way boathouse between the old days of skippered hire and fresher alone by way of a coven of hirers with a skipper in company and the cost spread out over the gaggle. Would also be a way for hirers to make new friends, learn new skills together and have the safety net of lots of extra hands if needed. No arguments about double mooring etc.  Personally I like cruising in company and in the safer reaches people can spread their wings navigate to a destination, a boatyard perhaps with moorings reserved. I guess this is how the charter yacht business has to work overseas so why not try the principle inshore?

On topic the hirers can observe each other and then discuss of an evening how much wash, rpm etc.

[ZimbiIV]

It does not matter how big the boat is, it does not matter how powerful the engine/s are, IT is how they are used!

I had a car that would do nearly 200 mph BUT I did not try that when public highways.

We had a boat with a single cylinder engine and would not have tried Breydon in that one.

Most of the speeding on the waterways I have seen, has been done by people who have been told X revs equals 6mph, NOT with the tide is doesn't it equals 6mph plus the tide rate.

I have been guilty of speeding, when someone has done the total unexpected and it was safer to get the hell out of it than risk a collision. 

Now with so many apps available there is no excuse for not having a speedometer on a boat.

paul

[Turnoar]

Will a speedometer alone be enough to prevent hirers getting into trouble? I think it’s about experience too which paul rightly references in the post above. Information is helpful though, minus speed ought to tell you to give up and go with the flow!

[RealWindmill]

2 hours ago, Vaughan said:

Such a fatuous remark deserves a response in kind.

So let's have a minimum speed limit for kayaks and paddleboards in a main river navigation, like they have on Belgian motorways.

I suggest 3 MPH.

Let's let the buggers paddle for it!!

It might appear a fatuous question but I see no-one  seems to want or is able to reply

[rightsaidfred]

I think it goes something like if you need it explained then their is no point trying.

Fred

[Smoggy]

Ok then, I have a seagoing boat,at 30' it is smaller than half the hire boats, it can fold down to 8'8" within minutes (actually less than a minute) ,I am perfectly capable of sticking to a speed limit (ok 3mph is tricky) am also capable of 22 knots, if you think you are going to govern my engines then you wont make it off from doing the job alive, it can do both very well, the broads is a tidal haven and always should be.

 

[Vaughan]

Reading back on this, I have just remembered another very important matter, when cutting down boat speed by limiting the revs of the engine.

Hydraulic drive, or a PRM "twin disc" gearbox will give the same shaft revolutions in astern, as in ahead.  The TMP, or especially the Borg Warner, also the old Parsons, do not.

These boxes need high revs on the engine to have effective stern power, so if you cut the engine revs to say 1800, you will end up with your boats hitting the quay when mooring, as they can't go astern properly.

There is also the fact that a fine pitch propeller needs high revs to give effective power in astern.

Another reason why the limiting of revs on hire boats is a "hands on" skill.  A delicate balance between cutting speed, or cutting safety in boat handling.