Locks Geldeston

[NorfolkNog]

I'm inclined to agree with all the above comments. Wonder if Brian Eno is still involved? (please don't start posting YouTube videos)   

I've doubled up on the Lottery - so first call a boat and a share in the Locks! 

Actually thinking about it - I wonder if you would have any say about future developments if you were a shareholder? 

[Meantime]

1 hour ago, JennyMorgan said:

I note the intention to connect to the national grid. I find that alarming, the very ethos and character of the place could be under threat. I have read the prospectus, am glad that I did.

Being connected and how you use it are two different things. Most of the pub was served by a big generator out the back which could be noisy and also smelly when the wind blew the wrong way. It was used to power many things, but the main bar was still lit by candle light. Connection to the grid would get rid of the nuisance factors and needn't change the character of the main bar.

[JennyMorgan]

43 minutes ago, NorfolkNog said:

I wonder if you would have any say about future developments if you were a shareholder? 

Allegedly you would.

31 minutes ago, Meantime said:

Connection to the grid would get rid of the nuisance factors and needn't change the character of the main bar.

Just maybe there would then be a demand for electricity on the moorings, I wonder if that might alter the customer base. 

[Meantime]

1 minute ago, JennyMorgan said:

Allegedly you would.

Just maybe there would then be a demand for electricity on the moorings, I wonder if that might alter the customer base. 

I suspect there would be many who would want electric on the moorings, but the BA sold off the woodland so both runs either thru the woodland, or the pub gardens sound like expensive options to me. They couldn't go overhead which might be cheaper because money has already been spent in that part of the world removing pylons and cables from sight.

[Paul]

The prospectus budgets for replacement of the existing generator which is considered "past end of life", plus interior fittings a I understand the previous occupants gutted it on departure - a total of £70,000. It sounds strange to replace the generator if the plan is to connect mains power. The share offer is hoped to raise £600,000 which at £50 per share sounds like 12,000 total shares and a maximum of 1,000 shares for any one person, around 8.25% of the total stock. 

Assuming the stock is fully subscribed I wonder who will make the major decisions?

[NorfolkNog]

28 minutes ago, Paul said:

Assuming the stock is fully subscribed I wonder who will make the major decisions?

That is the 64 thousand dollar question. The main drawback with these 'community ownership' schemes is the 'too many cooks' syndrome. Everyone will have different opinions. The only practical solution is to elect a small committee or management team who will run the pub. Otherwise it would be almost impossible to accommodate everyone's view. 

The White Horse at Upton has been a good example of a community run pub. However an important factor is that I understand a lot of the backing came from residents who were not particularly interested in the pub per se - they considered that a pub would enhance property values in the village so were happy to invest accordingly but take a back seat. In the case of the Locks I suspect investors will want to be more hands on. 

It's a shame in many ways that someone with a love of the place and a decent bank account could have taken it on, run it by keeping the character and hopefully making it viable. As I've suggested numerous times Colin Smith had a good grasp of the place and if I were in a position to buy it I'd certainty seek his advice if not his active involvement. 

Haven't checked the lottery yet..............

[JennyMorgan]

Before investing, becoming involved, I would wish to know how this venture is to be managed. The comment about 'too many cooks' is sadly both valid and relevant. Due to Covid 19 I sincerely doubt that there is any possibility that The Locks will be up and running and at least able to cover its costs anytime soon. I don't see The Locks becoming self sustaining for many months, if not years to come.

It strikes me that the prospective was written and viewed through several layers of rose tinted spectacles. I note the projected costs include a proposed management fee and I do question whether that alone is sustainable, especially during the present trading conditions. As we have seen over this past winter flooding is a major, and unpredictable factor.

I had in mind a £500.00 investment but what would I get for that? Some satisfaction in knowing that I have helped revive The Locks, at least in the short term, but that's obviously it. No guarantees of success, no discounts for shareholders, no sweeteners whatsoever. 

In the hard light of day I do question the realities. The Locks is a business, it is not a charity. I do question the business acumen of those leading this venture. Nevertheless, I wish them well.

[Meantime]

I do wonder how much of the share offer has been read by some making observations here!

Can I politely suggest that if this project is to survive, it needs support not criticism, unless it is from the point of view of having read all the material. Anybody thinking of investing should read all the material and then decide for themselves whether it suits them or not. Negativity breeds negativity.

The proposed future of The Locks is not as a charity, or business, but a community benefit society, therefore it is the community that will benefit primarily. Any assets and if and when surplus profits are locked in and used to benefit the community as a whole. 

If you purchase shares you would have the warm fuzzy feeling of having helped the pub survive and having helped the community. There is no quick profit or benefits for the individual investor. There are no discounts, no dividends or sweeteners, if that is what you are looking for then you've probably missed the point of the share offer. If after three years the venture is making a profit, some of that profit would be returned as interest to the share holders, with the rest going to community projects.

I would imagine the greatest incentive to invest is for those who live in the area and stand to benefit from the pub as a community asset. I would suggest that others who have a fondness for the pub and the area and who may even think of moving to the area at some stage in the future should think of it as a benevolent investment rather than a financial one, and should only do so if they have some spare cash they can afford to tie up for some considerable time and are not expecting a return on their investment.

You would get the benefit of being able to sit in the pub garden at some point in the future and think in some small way I helped to save this pub, which is probably worth more than 10% of your food and drink because you invested in the pub.

[NorfolkNog]

30 minutes ago, Meantime said:

would imagine the greatest incentive to invest is for those who live in the area and stand to benefit from the pub as a community asset

Absolutely 

31 minutes ago, Meantime said:

You would get the benefit of being able to sit in the pub garden at some point in the future and think in some small way I helped to save this pub, which is probably worth more than 10% of your food and drink because you invested in the pub.

Sums it up. 

I think it's right to consider the viability of the enterprise. However if you are looking for a return there are no guarantees. I got the mighty return of 18 quid on the lottery this week. But if I had the money I'd certainly look at it if for nothing more than to have done my bit and hopefully enjoy the unique atmosphere in the future. 

[Meantime]

14 minutes ago, NorfolkNog said:

Absolutely 

Sums it up. 

I think it's right to consider the viability of the enterprise. However if you are looking for a return there are no guarantees. I got the mighty return of 18 quid on the lottery this week. But if I had the money I'd certainly look at it if for nothing more than to have done my bit and hopefully enjoy the unique atmosphere in the future. 

With regards to returns, having read the share prospectus the value of the shares will never go up, so no one would ever get more back than they paid in. If you invested £1000 now and in 20 years time the whole venture was wrapped up for some reason, the most you could get back would be £1000. If after paying back all the share holders there was a surplus it would be distributed to one or more community projects.

There are only two ways you might possibly benefit financially. Your initial investment may be allowed against your tax bill, so if you invested £1000 and you are a 30% tax payer you should be able to claim back 30% of that investment from the tax man. The second route is via any interest paid to share holders if and when the venture creates a surplus profit.

A question was asked earlier about how it would be managed. Each share holder gets a vote. The shareholders vote in a 12 strong management committee who must be shareholders which will stand for an initial 12 month term and then each reelection afterwards would be for three years. The management committee would appoint a pub manager to run the pub day to day. I believe but don't know for sure that The White Horse at Upton runs along similar lines.

This is a community venture to secure a community asset for the benefit of the community, whilst allowing those outside the community to offer their support.

[ScrumpyCheddar]

I’m not looking for a return .. I’m looking forward going back there and enjoying a pint... knowing I’ve helped keeping a wonderful place and owning a small part of it...

 We only discovered the locks last year and fell in love with the place..  I expect I’m speaking for many .. 

[Chelsea14Ian]

I first went to the Locks in the sixties  when Susan was the landlady. Last went there two years ago before it changed  hands.

[Smoggy]

If it was a pub I could get my boat to fairly often or local to me I would certainly be buying in without worrying about the return but as it is it's not for me, I can't get under the old beccles bridge and rarely venture down that way.

I can see a few more pubs going this way after covid and may well chip in on the right ones but not this one thanks, I'll leave it for the locals.

[Paul]

Clearly Jenny Morgan and myself have read the prospectus as we are quoting from it but I shall say nothing more on the subject though, as clearly only certain views are acceptable. Who was it that once said "reality has no place here".

I wish the locks and the community operation of it every success. 

[Vaughan]

Frankly, if I were going to invest my hard-earned in any business right now, it would not be a pub.  And that has nothing to do with the virus as the pub trade has been in free-fall for years.

So I have not read the prospectus but I have read the comments here, and I wonder what is being proposed?  If it is investment in a business, where the shares have no return on capital, then I can't see it at all.

So is this to be in the form of a charity, in which case should it be registered as a charity?

If the aim is more to preserve a piece of Norfolk history, a bit like a wherry or a wind pump, perhaps that is something to consider, but it doesn't sound to me like a "business" investment.

[Vaughan]

I have just "liked" JM's post as I have just read the prospectus, projected profit and loss accounts and the business plan.

I am afraid I still feel that to invest in something which will give me no return on capital, will not increase in share value, cannot be sold or transferred, may not be able to be recovered, even after 3 years, except by permission of the committee and may be lost altogether, even before the business has raised its full capital, sounds to me more like a donation to charity than a business investment.  I also note that each investor gets one vote, no matter how many shares they own. 

At least liability is limited to the value of the shareholding in the event of bankruptcy. 

Like Paul I wish them well but I am afraid the proposal would not interest me personally.

 

[Chelsea14Ian]

Having seen some of the comments, I've  changed  my mind.Sadly I won't  invest in shares.I do wish them well and hope to visit  in time.

[JennyMorgan]

I am not bothered as to whether I would be able to profit or not but I am cautious where subsequent liability is a possibility.  By that I mean being continually expected to dip my hand into my back pocket in order to avoid bankruptcy. It is a community project, I wouldn't expect to retire gracefully on the proceeds.  This is one for folk to weigh up the pros and cons, to decide for themselves. 

[JawsOrca]

Interesting comments, I brought a tiny amount of shares.  I've wasted more money doing other stupid things.  I just got my receipt, I have a warm fuzzy feeling that I've symbolically brought into one of the best pubs I've ever been to.  I don't expect anything back, I'm not going to have any say, I don't expect to invest anymore, I probably won't even bother claiming the tax back.. But one day (hopefully) I'll be able to visit my pub and have a beer and say I supported it.

[JennyMorgan]

41 minutes ago, JawsOrca said:

Interesting comments, I brought a tiny amount of shares.  I've wasted more money doing other stupid things.  I just got my receipt, I have a warm fuzzy feeling that I've symbolically brought into one of the best pubs I've ever been to.  I don't expect anything back, I'm not going to have any say, I don't expect to invest anymore, I probably won't even bother claiming the tax back.. But one day (hopefully) I'll be able to visit my pub and have a beer and say I supported it.

Best way of looking at it! 

[Lulu]

Im sure most of you will have come across this before. Absolutely fascinating 

 

[JennyMorgan]

36 minutes ago, Lulu said:

Im sure most of you will have come across this before. Absolutely fascinating 

 

Fascinating stuff, thanks for the reminder. I well remember Walter Coe and Chris Groves, good old boys, good old times. But that was then, now is now.

[Bytheriver]

On 17/01/2021 at 00:05, Paul said:

The prospectus budgets for replacement of the existing generator which is considered "past end of life", plus interior fittings a I understand the previous occupants gutted it on departure - a total of £70,000. It sounds strange to replace the generator if the plan is to connect mains power. The share offer is hoped to raise £600,000 which at £50 per share sounds like 12,000 total shares and a maximum of 1,000 shares for any one person, around 8.25% of the total stock. 

Assuming the stock is fully subscribed I wonder who will make the major decisions?

I suspect there are plenty of suitable silenced Euro 5 Generators on the second hand market with the outdoor entertainment industry in turmoil and would be a stopgap which could be re-sold if the mains do arrive in due course   

[Bytheriver]

On 17/01/2021 at 21:41, JawsOrca said:

Interesting comments, I brought a tiny amount of shares.  I've wasted more money doing other stupid things.  I just got my receipt, I have a warm fuzzy feeling that I've symbolically brought into one of the best pubs I've ever been to.  I don't expect anything back, I'm not going to have any say, I don't expect to invest anymore, I probably won't even bother claiming the tax back.. But one day (hopefully) I'll be able to visit my pub and have a beer and say I supported it.

My sentiments entirely!  (Two shares) 

[Spray]

We too have done the same and bought a few shares.

We do not expect any return but just the satisfaction of hopefully saving this historic pub for the foreseeable future.