Fuel Usage

[rightsaidfred]

17 minutes ago, Mouldy said:

Did the boat have an electric freshwater flush loo?  Was it a new boat?  It was much easier to control how much water was used to flush with the old ‘thunderbox’ style toilets, or manual pump flush type.

If the fuel was charged at £2 per litre, that’s only about 44 gallons.  I wouldn’t be surprised to see some larger craft fitted with a tank that size.

My boat has a 200ltr tank, I know I only potter about in the north but only ever use 10 - 15 ltrs in an average weeks cruising, I use more for heating in the winter than I do cruising.

Fred

[kpnut]

Are you sure someone hasn’t muddled up litres and gallons? 

If you did approx 130 miles and it used the same as my boat in summer (eg 2.4 mpL) it would use approx 55litres. Charged at approx £1.70 per litre would be approx £93. 
Then if they charged you per gallon by mistake it might make  more sense. Would be approx £425. 

So then say you used a bit less than my average miles per gallon (newer engine, more efficient driving, less idling on a mooring etc etc) it could end up about £400. 

[Cheesey69]

1974 flattie. 1.5 bmc. 9 miles to the gallon and a 45 gallon tank. 
 

not connected to this complaint but I had a quay side talk with a hirer that I sort of shadowed from Acle to Beccles  and I can tell you he was flat out making steam from his exhaust but he insisted he was only creeping about. Totally against the tides which was horrible late September and true he would arrive before me but I was happy with my 4 mph 

[kpnut]

 

3 minutes ago, Cheesey69 said:

1974 flattie. 1.5 bmc. 9 miles to the gallon and a 45 gallon tank. 

Pleased I’m doing there or thereabouts the same as you with a similar age 1.5. 

[Vaughan]

7 hours ago, kpnut said:

So nearer average 2.4 miles per litre

At an average speed of 5MPH that would be just over 2 litres an hour, which I would expect from a 1.5 engine.  A Nanni 4220 will do 2.5 to 3 litres an hour depending on speed.  In fact, with a diesel it depends very much on speed.  The 5 cylinder Nanni at full power will be 7.5 litres.  That was on a new boat before we cut the speed down!  The best is the Perkins 4108, which I have often seen average 1.6 litres.

I am used to boats with hour meters as we charge for fuel by the hour.  A week's holiday in France will be about 30 hours but probably only 25 on the Broads as there is less cruising distance involved.

These average figures can almost double if you run the heater a lot in cold weather.

By the way, the Nanni figures are for big boats with hydraulic drive.  The Perkins were in smaller boats with shaft drive.

[Vaughan]

This also depends a lot on the propellor. It follows that a Nanni at 2000 RPM with a 16X12 prop, will use a lot less diesel than when at the same revs, swinging a 22X18.

[RS2021]

10 hours ago, andyg said:

It's an odd one this, of course mistakes happen. But if the tank hadn't been re fueled from its previous hire, then surely it would of had an effect on the previous crew fuel refund. I'm sure yards keep records of fuel used etc. It may be worth calling them and ask the to investigate.

I seem to remember that some yards use old style fuel pumps which need to be 'zeroed' between use. Is it as simple as the pump wasn't 'zeroed' and it has recorded two consecutive fill ups.

[Gracie]

Hi Onthewater

 Why not tell us about your holiday, we love those on here and would very much love to hear about yours. It's nice to re-live it by sharing it. Don't allow anything to spoil what I hope was a wonderful time for you and your family  x

 

[ranworthbreeze]

My last two visits to the Broads the fuel & 2 x pump outs were under £90.00, the dearest price was a few years ago when we were on the southern rivers and fuel charges were at the last high price, four trips across Breydon Water at speed, going to the northern rivers and training for four days so the most fuel I have used was £186.00 including two toilets pumped out.

So you have been overcharged and then some.

Regards

Alan  

[andyg]

1 hour ago, RS2021 said:

I seem to remember that some yards use old style fuel pumps which need to be 'zeroed' between use. Is it as simple as the pump wasn't 'zeroed' and it has recorded two consecutive fill ups.

I haven't seen a pump like your referring to for years, but yes I do remember them. I seem to remember you had to remove the hose and switch it on. They then automatically re set to zero. 

[rightsaidfred]

2 hours ago, Vaughan said:

At an average speed of 5MPH that would be just over 2 litres an hour, which I would expect from a 1.5 engine.  A Nanni 4220 will do 2.5 to 3 litres an hour depending on speed.  In fact, with a diesel it depends very much on speed.  The 5 cylinder Nanni at full power will be 7.5 litres.  That was on a new boat before we cut the speed down!  The best is the Perkins 4108, which I have often seen average 1.6 litres.

I am used to boats with hour meters as we charge for fuel by the hour.  A week's holiday in France will be about 30 hours but probably only 25 on the Broads as there is less cruising distance involved.

These average figures can almost double if you run the heater a lot in cold weather.

By the way, the Nanni figures are for big boats with hydraulic drive.  The Perkins were in smaller boats with shaft drive.

While I wouldn't question your findings as such surely there are to many variables at work hull design, age of engine and condition of pump and injectors etc for any real assumptions.

I know as a private owner my usage is a lot different to when I hired, I have a 30yr old 42hp Nanni with shaft drive and rarely exceed 1400rpm often lower, normally I am out for a week at a time and rarely use 15ltrs for cruising.

Fred.

[kpnut]

33 minutes ago, andyg said:

I haven't seen a pump like your referring to for years, but

Isn’t the one at Sutton staithe like that?

[andyg]

Just now, kpnut said:

Isn’t the one at Sutton staithe like that?

I've no idea,I haven't been in the yard for donkeys to be honest. I'm sure there's still one or two about. 

[rightsaidfred]

16 minutes ago, andyg said:

I've no idea,I haven't been in the yard for donkeys to be honest. I'm sure there's still one or two about. 

I think Boulters still have one.

Fred

[andyg]

What I have noticed over the last few hires I've done, the big new boats we've  are not very good with fuel consumption. We used a load of fuel on dazzling light the same on broadsman for the time and distance covered, prince of light a small little compact boat was exceptionally good. All hydraulic drive all fitted with all kinds of modern technology. In dazzling and broadsman cases they are big heavy boats to push along. It would be good for the original poster to tell us what type of craft. No names need to be mentioned. 

[Vaughan]

50 minutes ago, rightsaidfred said:

While I wouldn't question your findings as such surely there are to many variables at work hull design, age of engine and condition of pump and injectors etc for any real assumptions.

Naturally, but these are figures from average readings over a fleet of 50 hire boats, all cut down to a maximum speed of 11KPH - around 7MPH.  When you have hour meters, it is easy to see how many hours the boat cruised  in a week and then compare that with how much diesel you put in it afterwards.  From this I was also able to see how much less the boats used in summer, compared to the off-peak weeks when the heating was in use.

For Broads use at slow speed in a displacement hull I don't think hull design will make much difference, although waterline length certainly will. 

I think the main point is, my figures show a great deal less average consumption than the OP of the thread appears to have been charged for!

[JanetAnne]

I would have thought such a high figure would have caused questions long before asking the hirer to pay, unless £400+ a week fuel bills are more common than we think?

[Onthewater]

27 minutes ago, andyg said:

What I have noticed over the last few hires I've done, the big new boats we've  are not very good with fuel consumption. We used a load of fuel on dazzling light the same on broadsman for the time and distance covered, prince of light a small little compact boat was exceptionally good. All hydraulic drive all fitted with all kinds of modern technology. In dazzling and broadsman cases they are big heavy boats to push along. It would be good for the original poster to tell us what type of craft. No names need to be mentioned. 

Something similar to this although not the exact boat. When you a load of fuel what does that equate to in monetary terms? I’d heard a guess at nowhere near £400?!?!

[Gracie]

21 minutes ago, JanetAnne said:

 unless £400+ a week fuel bills are more common than we think?

I fear for the hire industry and the future of the Broads if this is the case. To be handed a bill of 400+ when you hand the boat back, on top of the sky rocketing price of the hire, most people won't be able to afford a boating holiday 

[Meantime]

I think I would start by asking the yard how large the tank is? There cannot be many hire boats with a tank larger than 212 litres which is how much they were charged for.

If they did 31 hours cruising over a week, then discounting the changeover days that leaves 6 days to do any real cruising which works out at about 5.2 hours cruising a day, which is somewhere close to what the yards normally say you should do to ensure you keep the batteries topped up. I think they normally recommend doing at least 4 hours per day.

So it strikes me they probably did slightly above average cruising hours for the week, but there is no way they should have got through 212 litres of diesel, IF indeed the tank can even hold that much.

 

[Onthewater]

2 hours ago, ranworthbreeze said:

My last two visits to the Broads the fuel & 2 x pump outs were under £90.00, the dearest price was a few years ago when we were on the southern rivers and fuel charges were at the last high price, four trips across Breydon Water at speed, going to the northern rivers and training for four days so the most fuel I have used was £186.00 including two toilets pumped out.

So you have been overcharged and then some.

Regards

Alan  

Tha is Alan that’s really helpful 

[pastboating]

If you were handed a bill for £400  at the end of your holiday you must have used the fuel deposit as well. I assume that would mean approx. £550 of fuel used. 

[andyg]

52 minutes ago, Onthewater said:

Something similar to this although not the exact boat. When you a load of fuel what does that equate to in monetary terms? I’d heard a guess at nowhere near £400?!?!

Oh god no, I'm totally with you on this, I think you've had your trousers pulled down here to be perfectly honest. I for one would certainly not leave it. I'd be totally shocked if the yard in question tried telling you that was normal. Like I said our friends covered more distance then you didn't use the tides etc, they paid an additional 80 odd quid ontop of there 150 fuel deposit. Their boat was bright horizon a horizon 35. So they used approx 230 quids worth of derv. The guy said they had used a lot..

[Mouldy]

1 hour ago, Meantime said:

I think I would start by asking the yard how large the tank is? There cannot be many hire boats with a tank larger than 212 litres which is how much they were charged for.

If they did 31 hours cruising over a week, then discounting the changeover days that leaves 6 days to do any real cruising which works out at about 5.2 hours cruising a day, which is somewhere close to what the yards normally say you should do to ensure you keep the batteries topped up. I think they normally recommend doing at least 4 hours per day.

So it strikes me they probably did slightly above average cruising hours for the week, but there is no way they should have got through 212 litres of diesel, IF indeed the tank can even hold that much.

 

I think that there are more  hire craft on the river that have a fuel capacity similar or greater than that.  Moonlight Shadow has a quoted capacity of approx 80 gallons (360 litres) and is an ex Broom hire craft.  Back in 1974, I hired a Calypso from F B Wilds and on return to the yard at the end of the holiday I asked what the fuel capacity was and was told 40 gallons, which equates to 180 litres, even for a modest 2 berth craft.  Personally, I think it highly likely that a modern hireboat will hold sufficient fuel for a two week holiday, including heater usage.  Why would they want a hirer to either run out, or be forced to buy fuel from another supplier, losing profit for themselves.

As I said previously, I spoke to someone in 2014 who paid a total of £265 for his week (including the fuel deposit).  To be fair and by his admission, he’d not been economical with his use of the throttle and been everywhere fairly much flat out, but it is possible to use a lot of fuel if speed limits and tide direction are not observed.  I can’t remember how much fuel was back then, but I’m sure it was a lot less than now, so his £265 could easily have converted to more than 212 litres.

Don’t get me wrong, in this case the yard probably didn’t refuel the boat before it went back out.  Even if they did, I’ve frequently witnessed craft ticking over in yards before new hirers arrive, presumably to put charge in the batteries, but this does use fuel and if they’ve already been topped up, that is fuel that the next hirer will pay for, which in my opinion is wrong.  As long as the fuel is not dipped in front of the hirer at the start of a holiday, there’s clearly an element of trust involved, which in this case may well be misplaced.

If the OP returns to the same yard, in his or her position, I would insist on the fuel being dipped before I left the yard.

[webntweb]

When the OP takes this up with the yard he/she could ask them to check the previous hirers final bill which should show if they had been charged for their refuel.