Reform The Broads Authority

[floydraser]

25 minutes ago, Smoggy said:

(but faceache is still crap).

Unless you're building a Cessna...

[floydraser]

1 hour ago, Meantime said:

It does appear that BRAG have managed to get the door open to DEFRA and I wish them well.

I do struggle a little though with the concept of an unelected body campaigning for reform of an unelected body! 

Nice you've aknowledged their effort but over on the Ranworth thread you said you weren't following what they were doing. If you were you would know that effectively they ARE an elected body by virtue of the way they have formed up. It's not perfect and people have moaned but so far I'm not aware of anyone opposed to what they are doing, apart from the BA of course.

[BroadAmbition]

Arrived at Ranworth,, refused to pay mooring fee. Nice Lady kindly gave me this. They are now approaching  moored craft asking for payment 

Griff

 

[Meantime]

Just now, BroadAmbition said:

Arrived at Ranworth,, refused to pay mooring fee. Nice Lady kindly gave me this. They are now approaching  moored craft asking for payment 

Griff

 

Did you ask her what the published appeals process is, and which body you appeal to?

 

[Meantime]

3 minutes ago, floydraser said:

Nice you've aknowledged their effort but over on the Ranworth thread you said you weren't following what they were doing. If you were you would know that effectively they ARE an elected body by virtue of the way they have formed up. It's not perfect and people have moaned but so far I'm not aware of anyone opposed to what they are doing, apart from the BA of course.

They are not an elected body, they are a campaign group. The committee may have been elected by members of the group, but they are not an elected body. If I've understood correctly you need to join the group to vote, and can be evicted from the group, so hardly democratic.

 

[Ray]

Rotated Griff's image for readability on a phone screen, hope that's OK

[floydraser]

9 minutes ago, Meantime said:

 If I've understood correctly you need to join the group to vote, and can be evicted from the group, so hardly democratic.

 

But you haven't been following so there's a chance you haven't understood correctly. Whether it's democratic or not doesn't matter so long as they can rely on support. They are achieving.

[Meantime]

2 minutes ago, floydraser said:

Whether it's democratic or not doesn't matter so long as they can rely on support.

But isn't that part of the problem with the BA, it not being democratic and elected, so it does matter!

I'm not against what BRAG are doing, but they are not doing it in my name. I haven't voted for them. 

So they are a campaign group, which I'm not a member of, and good luck to them.

I'm not really sure what your trying to get from me with these posts on this thread and the Ranworth one?

[floydraser]

13 minutes ago, Meantime said:

 

I'm not really sure what your trying to get from me with these posts on this thread and the Ranworth one?

Nothing at all. I just wanted to establish whether or not your creative time and energy were being co-ordinated with BRAG. You've made your point of view quite clear and I respect that. 

[BroadAmbition]

Meantime - No, didn’t discuss appeals process. The Lady was nice n polite 

Griff

[Meantime]

21 minutes ago, floydraser said:

Nothing at all. I just wanted to establish whether or not your creative time and energy were being co-ordinated with BRAG. You've made your point of view quite clear and I respect that. 

It's alright, it was just starting to feel slightly like an interrogation 

I'm aware of BRAG and what they're trying achieve, I'm also aware of feeling about them on other FB groups. I'm following all publicly available info on the subject.

I'm neither working with or against BRAG, just watching on with interest. 

[Wussername]

I feel nervous with regard to BRAG. I wish to express my opinion, however I feel that the tide of euphoria is such that any comment i wish to make would be considered as negative, obstructive, against the cause.

My opinion might not necessarily be considered with any degree of sincerity.

I therefore have decided to refrain from comment. To avoid ill feeling.

 

 

 

 

[Vaughan]

2 hours ago, Ray said:

 

Would you be handed a piece a paper like this, if you parked your car to go shopping in Sainsbury's?

 

[Vaughan]

29 minutes ago, Wussername said:

I feel nervous with regard to BRAG.

 

29 minutes ago, Wussername said:

My opinion might not necessarily be considered with any degree of sincerity.

I quite agree with you, me old mate.

I am waiting for them to arrange a website, where we can express our opinions with care and consideration and have them discussed in the same spirit.  Just as we do already, right here.

Until then, I have no intention of entering into the "bear pit" of Facebook.

 

[grendel]

Since their own paperwork states for you to pay at the visitor centre, surely approaching you and demanding payment is against their procedures, and worthy of a challenge ( might even be against the bullying policy evidence was requested for  earlier)

[Wussername]

I find it somewhat distressing that holiday makers, boat owners,, are under duress due to the activities of the BA and thier employees.

[Meantime]

51 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

 

Would you be handed a piece a paper like this, if you parked your car to go shopping in Sainsbury's?

 

What it demonstrates is that the existing new signage alone is neither sufficient in size or quantity for you to be aware off as you moor. Handing the piece of paperwork to you makes you aware. I would simply say like I do with most junk mail, no thanks, don't need one, not interested thank you.

[Broads01]

Thanks for sharing the notice, Griff. I'm not a legal expert so I'm looking at it from a layman's perspective but I can't understand how contract law could come in to play, it doesn't seem right. I'd be very interested to hear from someone with the appropriate expertise.

Secondly, doesnt the term "Mooring Contravention Notice" specifically relate to the non-payment of river tolls? If so, I can't see how at the whim of the BA the term could be extended to include non-payment of a short term mooring charge which is something completely different.

[rightsaidfred]

3 hours ago, grendel said:

Since their own paperwork states for you to pay at the visitor centre, surely approaching you and demanding payment is against their procedures, and worthy of a challenge ( might even be against the bullying policy evidence was requested for  earlier)

There appears to be several issues here, first the threat of a fine and persueing some one for payment goes against the code of conduct for parking companies, I know this is mooring not parking  but best practice should still apply.

Secondly the BA cannot issue fines full stop and as payment is requested to be made at the information office   waiving a bit of paper threatening a fine could be construed as demanding money with menace (a physical threat is not necessary).

The appeals process starts and finishes with JP there is no formal procedure, you could try writing to the moorings email address but good luck getting an answer.

Fred

 

[Wussername]

My understanding is that you cannot be fined in the event of failing to conform to a contractual obligation. You can however be pursued in a civil court of law. 

There is a difference.

There is a danger of trying to compare the Ranworth so called "contract" with that of the car park "contract".

The latter with a degree of common law as opposed to statute accompanied by a certain amount of smoke and mirrors. Knowledge and experience, unknown waters for the BA (pun intended).

[grendel]

If it were taken to court, I am sure that the judicial service would make the comparison between mooring and car parking, especially on the first trial case, as it will be the nearest comparison that could be made.

[Meantime]

10 hours ago, Wussername said:

My understanding is that you cannot be fined in the event of failing to conform to a contractual obligation. You can however be pursued in a civil court of law. 

 

11 hours ago, rightsaidfred said:

Secondly the BA cannot issue fines full stop

There is a difference between issuing a fine, or penalty, and it being legally enforceable. When private car parking firms issue a Parking Charge Notice it might mention a charge you have to pay and even offer a reduced price if paid within a certain period of time. This fine, or penalty is not legally enforceable at that point in time. However if the car parking firm takes you to the small claims court under civil law and gets the judgement against you, then it becomes legally enforceable.

Fines, or penalties issued as a Penalty Charge Notice, by Police, Local Authorities are legally enforceable from the moment they are issued, although you normally get a period to appeal them.

I own a leasehold flat and as a part of the lease there is a section which allows the Landlord to charge interest at the bank base rate + 5% on service charges which are not paid within 30 days of being due. This is the fine, or penalty applied under civil law. It is not legally enforceable, but the landlord will still issue an invoice with the interest added on if the service charge is not paid. If it is still not paid and the Landlord goes to the small claims court and they decide in their favour then it is legally enforceable at that point. I will end up paying a penalty for late payment.

Think of the MCN as your invoice / fine / penalty for not paying your mooring fee on time, when it was demanded. It is not legally enforceable until you get taken to the small claims court and get a judgement against you, assuming off course that the BA have the correct grounds to win such a judgement.

What's in a word

Fine or Mulct the term more commonly used in civil law is a penalty of money that a court of law can decide has to be paid. It can be determined case by case or often announced in advance.

If you don't pay the mooring fee of £10, £5 or £3 and receive a MCN or fine, it is not legally enforceable at that point. However if you don't pay the "invoice" and get taken to the small claims court and the BA win (I personally doubt if they would with the present signs) then you could be instructed by a court which would be legally enforceable to pay the mooring fee, the £60 plus court costs. I think at that point few would argued that they haven't been penalised or fined.

Despite the fact that private car parking firms cannot issue legally enforceable fines, take a look at the following .gov webpage and look at the language the Government uses to describe the penalties that car parking firms issue. Government Website

It is the industry trade bodies that advise against the use of the word fine on a Parking Charge Notice to their members, not a legal requirement not to use it.

To the best of my knowledge there is no such trade body or organisation that advises about boat mooring fees or fines.

[floydraser]

Mooring at Ranworth has been discussed at great length over on the other thread, could we keep it there and leave this one for BRAG please?

I'm not sure of all the legal ins and outs as some of you are but instead of going over it again and again on a forum, how about someone puts all this information together into a case and forward it to one of the email addresses in the notice above. No Facebook needed.