Herring Bridge

[Vaughan]

14 hours ago, batrabill said:

Re the Bure Hump. The shallows at Stokesby have been there for a long long time. I think there is a hard bottom, so it's not a sediment problem, so I don't think anyone is claiming that is the Bure Hump, or that it has changed in recent times.

Stokesby is a band of hard gravel which has been there since the ice age.  There is a similar gravel bottom at Irstead Shoals, on the Ant.  It is part of what Timbo has told us about the "glacial till" which was the formation of what we sometimes call the Great Estuary.  As such, the gravel at Stokesby was convenient for a cattle swim.

For me, the Bure Hump exists in the area around Scaregap farm and on a few bends just upstream of it, where the speed of the tide changes greatly as it rounds the bends.  This slowing of the water allows silt in suspension to be dropped onto the bottom.  It is also why an alluvial river is always shallow on the inside of a sharp bend, where the water is going very slowly.

Edited to add :

This is all part of what causes a river to "meander", except in this case it can't, as the outsides of the bends are built up with piling as flood defences. So the silt just gradually builds up on the inside of the bend.

[Vaughan]

A good example of a meander (on the same River Bure) is at what is now Ant Mouth, where the old river turned sharply south over the marshes, before curving back north again by what we now call Fleet Dyke. The old wherrymen cut off the top of this loop by building a straight canal past St Benets Abbey, as a short cut.  Personally, I believe the original river Bure then meandered round to the north side of the Abbey. This big crescent shape can still clearly be seen in the marshes, on Google images.

The Bure would still meander like this today, if it were allowed to, but it is now all closed in with flood banks.

The hydraulic forces that cause the meandering are still there, however, which is why the river continues to build up silt on the inside of the bends.  Which is why it needs regular dredging!

[Bikertov]

Rivers, meandering etc was one of the "O" Level Geography subjects at school that I really enjoyed - found it fascinating.

[grendel]

oxbow lakes and all that stuff

 

[Vaughan]

40 minutes ago, grendel said:

oxbow lakes and all that stuff

But still most appropriate when considering the problems of tidal flow on the Bure.

Another example is Penton Hook Marina, on the Thames near Staines.  The whole mooring complex is situated in an ancient meander of the river, within its flood plain.

[Vaughan]

On 28/01/2024 at 10:15, batrabill said:

Worth a read. https://www.broads-society.org/post/climate-change-and-the-broads-what-s-at-stake

Sorry to be late getting around to it but it is indeed, worth a read.

On 28/01/2024 at 10:31, grendel said:

Ah, I see- so what they are saying is that the river system can no longer be relied upon to remove the water from their catchment areas and that regular dredging is required to improve the outflow of this water.

Quote

Moreover, maintaining and improving the water flow and defences is crucial. This includes ensuring that channels and waterways are kept clear to facilitate smooth water flow. When the sea levels permit drainage, it is imperative that this process is as efficient as possible to maximize the removal of excess water. This requires well-maintained and strategically designed defences that can cope with both the volume and speed of water flow

at least that is what the quote from the article above seems to indicate to me.

I certainly would have quoted this paragraph if Grendel hadn't already!  This is surely a clear case for the dredging of the lower reaches to improve the volume and flow out to sea.

I very much agree with the subjects that they have covered, except in one area, where there is a big difference between what I call a "washland" and what they are now calling "farmland".  One is a traditional Broads grazing meadow which is deliberately flooded as a water retention basin during high tides or excessive rainfall : The other is a field that has had the water table deliberately lowered by "deep dyke" pumping, and must now be protected from flooding.  It is becoming obvious that you can't have both. Especially as the constant pumping of these arable fields goes into the rivers and must also find its way out to sea.  It is all re-claimed land and I fear that farmers have "stolen" a lot of it for their own profit, which they now complain has to be "protected".

I had never thought before that the fall in the land between the upper Thurne and Yarmouth is only one metre but I suppose it must be, when you think of it.

 

[batrabill]

For those who haven't seen this

From Duncan Baker - they're live-streaming the meeting.

For those who havent got Facebook, there's lots of parking.

LIVESTREAM DETAILS - PUBLIC MEETING ON FLOODING

Tomorrow’s public meeting on flooding will be livestreamed to my Facebook. So if you want to keep up with what's going on from the comfort of your home you can.

There is no link, simply come onto my Facebook page at 18:45 pm just before the meeting starts and you will see the video appear.

My team will be monitoring the comments of the livestream so they can pass on questions to the panel, so if you watch from home you can still contribute.

The livestream will then be saved to my Facebook and can be played back. My team will also be taking minutes of the meeting so you can catch up after the event if you miss anything.

As a word of warning, we are expecting a huge turnout. We have a hard cap on 150 spaces so I urge you to please only attend personally if you've been affected or have a positive contribution to make.

We have several car parks being utilised, including the Barn for disabled and less able people, the Methodist Church, the Windsurf, and the Pleasure Boat. My team, laid out in the picture attached, will be on hand to help everyone on the night.

We look forward to an informative and productive meeting.

 

 

[batrabill]

So, Ive sat through it.

I offer a summary for those that haven't got 3 hours 

Feel free to argue if you were there or have listened

1. This years flooding is very largely due to unusually high rainfall and higher tides though October - Jan

2. Herring Bridge - there is no evidence that it has been a significant factor

3. We recently missed a massive surge event where there was huge surge which coincided with low tide - if it had coincided with high tide it would have caused  a "1953-type" event. Yikes!

4 Things WILL get worse due to Climate Change

5 The Bure is adequately dredged. John Packman says that the most significant pinch point is the bridges just past the yacht station.

6 The sewage systems of several places cannot cope with the flooding that we have now and WILL  come, and I didn't hear anyone say there is a plan to deal with that.

7 There seemed very little planning for a worse future, but there is a study being done this year which will model ways of speeding up the outflow from the Bure.

8 Every time the idea of just dredging the Bure deeper was raised everyone from the agencies looked really uncomfortable. The EA say that the amount of dredging to make a difference is huge.They keep pointing out that tides work in both directions, and they always say that the salt incursion problem could be made worse. Killing a lot of fish is plainly a possible consequence.

 

[BrundallNavy]

44 minutes ago, batrabill said:

So, Ive sat through it.

I offer a summary for those that haven't got 3 hours 

Feel free to argue if you were there or have listened

 

8 Every time the idea of just dredging the Bure deeper was raised everyone from the agencies looked really uncomfortable. The EA say that the amount of dredging to make a difference is huge.They keep pointing out that tides work in both directions, and they always say that the salt incursion problem could be made worse. Killing a lot of fish is plainly a possible consequence.

 

The amount of water coming in from the sea should be the same as what flows out, but the problem is as Vaughan stated there is a an abundance of run of water joining it from land so it therefore exceeds the ability of the water to flow out in the same time scale. 
 

I felt from the meeting that there is no joined up thinking between the various agencies to try and come to a solution. 

[Roy]

The meeting sounds like it was a ticking boxes task with no possible outcomes the Main reason nobody wants to dredge the lower bure is cost when both authorities have no money because its being spent on how should I say other interests ! 

To me the obvious plan would be to dredge dredge and dredge everywhere I quite fancy the drs job at the head of the authority but I think id not be popular with many non boaters. 
 

[NeilB]

I was going to attend but thought it would be a tad busy so watched on Facebook with a takeaway and couple of beers!

Towards the end someone did point out the lower Bure used to be dredged regularly and there was never an issue so what's changed with dredging now?  Sadly it was overlooked and no one responded.

Someone did mention the amount of water flowing through Horstead Mill as apparently it is measured, some on the top table seemed a little surprised by this.

There was lots of waffle and not much action promised, Duncan Baker was pushing for the planned modeling to be carried out as soon as possible.  Not sure who's carrying this out but I hope they are truly independent and not leaning towards giving the EA the answer they want.....

Henry Cator was quite impressive and a big advocate for dredging. 

There will be minutes available at some point, meeting was over 3 hours and a lot was discussed so may take a while to compile.

 

[astonsong]

Same old story no one wants to take responsibility because it's going to cost money & no one wants to pay for it

[grendel]

its my theory that the salt incursions are made worse by the water not being able to recede as fast as it comes in,

tide 1 the salt makes its way upriver.

tide 1 goes out, the salt recedes to half its incursion

tide 2, the fresh influx of water pushes the previous salt incursion further into the system

tide 2 goes out, the salt recedes back to the extent of the initial incursion.

tide 3 comes in, pushing the salt incursion yet further upstream.

now if the lower bure was dredged, the salt incursion would come in on tide 1 and recede, then on tide 2 it would get to the same extent as tide 1 and recede, then tide 3 it might get to the extent of tide 1, but by then the salt incursion is probably over, and the salt incursion has got no further than its initial extent.

now this is just me looking at it logically, but then I wont be the agency having to find the funding to do all the dredging, which I am sure sways their opinions.

the reason the amount needing dredging is huge is because they havent been doing it, plus by saying that they are acknowledging that there is a problem with the lower bure silting as we have been saying, the extent having been masked somewhat by the rising water levels, because if the water was 5 foot deep and its now 4 foot deep but in the meantime the water level has risen a foot, then that means 2 foot of silt has landed on the bottom of the river.

[Smoggy]

So salt will come in and fish will die, did the same fish lurk in the same sections when dredging actually happened? Have they inhabited sections they couldn't previously have survived in?

I'm not an angler so genuine questions. 

[batrabill]

.

[Vaughan]

Thank you to all those who have reported back with info on the meeting.  I don't suppose we should have realistically expected that something might actually happen?

Leaving aside party politics, I must say that Duncan Baker has proved himself to be an excellent "constituency" MP. He makes himself available to assist where he can and I have often seen him on TV, standing up in The House to raise matters of importance to North Norfolk, so thanks are due to him for this effort.

It appears to me this time though, that he may be fighting a bit of an uphill battle.  As an old friend of mine, who was base manager for our operation in New York State used to say :

It's impossible to soar like an eagle - when you are surrounded by turkeys!

[Norfolkangler]

14 hours ago, Smoggy said:

So salt will come in and fish will die, did the same fish lurk in the same sections when dredging actually happened? Have they inhabited sections they couldn't previously have survived in?

I'm not an angler so genuine questions. 

Back in my younger days, (when they actually did dredge) I could catch roach all day long at what they called Runham Swim. That's downstream of the "Hump" I can even remember catching roach, hybrids and bream at the Stracy Arms early season. I wouldn't even bother trying anywhere downstream of Acle nowadays and don't know anyone else local who would.  

[AndyTBoater]

I too watched it on the live stream. 

Lots of talk about how we need to stop groundwater and rainfall getting into the sewerage system but no practical solutions as to how or when this would happen. 

Lots of talk about "modelling" to see what the problem is and how rain makes its way into rivers. 

Lots of talk about lack of funding from all agencies to cope with anything at all

No commitment from any of the agencies to get anything done in a specific timeframe.

A lovely 10 minutes at the end about the battle between Letheringsett Mill and the EA/Anglian Water as to who pays for the dredging there. Completely took things away from the issues at Hickling and the surrounding areas. A very well timed distraction from the points made earlier.

I do admire Duncan for taking this on in what could only be described as a very busy election year for him. He truly is a man of the voters - sorry people. 

Anyhoo. Years ago, I heard a story that somebody left a sluice gate open or closed or something in Beccles which caused flooding to houses.

Someone found out that all the water that flooded out was "owned" by Anglian Water who refused to help the homeowners. They then got their solicitor to write to AW with a bill for storage of water that was in their house. AW turned up the next day and started sandbagging and pumping out houses. Probably an apocryphal story but did make me giggle.

I spent a few minutes checking online as to who owns the water but gave up and watched videos of cats playing pianos instead. 

[Vaughan]

Peter Sellers recorded this on a 78 record in 1958.

It could be just as true if he had done it today.

[floydraser]

Hmmm. Just assembling more of my very cynical thoughts......  I did mention somewhere some time ago about seeing students at Brum Uni modelling river landscapes... recently there was a TV news item about using new types of drone developed to accurately map the surface of the antarctic because of the past difficulties of land transport down there....

So no such excuses relating to a very accessible flat area then?

As I hinted at before, the modelling has probably already been done but doesn't show results favourable to someone's agenda. Give it time though; as soon as they learn how to interpret the results so that some else pays, we'll get to know about it. Or we'll only get to the truth once all those in the know have retired.

[Vaughan]

There is a piece just appeared on broads national pike, which members might enjoy!

Sorry I can't link it.      

[Smoggy]

9 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

There is a piece just appeared on broads national pike, which members might enjoy!

Sorry I can't link it.      

http://www.broadsnationalpike.com/

[Vaughan]

An article on the EDP website this morning announces the building of a large number of new pumping stations around the Thurne area and as far down as St Benets Level.  Work will start in spring 2025 and will ensure that the surrounding fields can be more efficiently drained after flooding.  This sounds good news, coming so soon after the public meeting in Hickling.

A pity the article doesn't mention a rather important problem : if they are going to be able to pump all this rainwater out into the river, what is the river going to do with it???

 

[Smoggy]

51 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

A pity the article doesn't mention a rather important problem : if they are going to be able to pump all this rainwater out into the river, what is the river going to do with it???

 

They are going to fit a plughole.

[marshman]

If this is an IDB initiative, does this mean that the farmers will be able to plough up more grazing marshes?