New Engines - Something to consider

[LondonRascal]

I thought I would share this with owners who might be thinking about the need for a new engine.   There are plenty of manufacturers out there but it would appear on the Broads the choice for the smaller inland river cruiser comes down to Beta or Nanni.

 

You sort of 'know where you are' with either makes, and it is easy to find out information on them, visit someone who has one and get fist hand testimonials.

 

However I was reading with interest on a other forums old posts from a few years ago about MP Marine Solutions - www.marine-power.net  - they import engines from China and it seems that is where everything roles their eyes those words 'from China'.   Well now as we are in September 2014 they (MP Power Solutions) are still in business which is nice to know for anyone who bought from them 3 years ago wondering if they would be.

 

I'm not a boat owner, but even  I thought 'where is the catch' as if they would be some horrid cheaply made things that either work or just go bang in a week.  Of course information is sparse online and it has taken some digging  - the easy part is finding out who makes and supplies hem and they are generically known as TD-ME engines and you can buy them direct from the factory.  The lower HP models you need to buy at least 2, the higher HP models you can buy individually and shipped over here on a pallet in about a fortnight for between $2,000 and $10,000 ready to go complete with gearbox.

 

Then I found a You Tube Channel (out of Russia) who has many videos of the various engines but it is all in, well Russian.  You can set You Tube to translate the words into subtitles but that is a bit hit and miss. 

Then I found www.td-power.ru and if you use Google Chrome (Internet Browser) it translates it all into very good English.  From there one can find testimonials, videos of the engines installed into various boats - one with over 3,000 hours and looking as fresh as the day they went in.  

 

This then got me wondering if these engines are being bought all over the world surely if they were bad the Internet would be littered with information about how to avoid them, but it does not seem so.  The smaller blocks seem based on Kubuta engines, the larger on Izuzu or Nissan blocks - they are simply constructed units so nothing fancy.

 

So by using the links if anyone is thinking about re-engining and money is tight, these might just fit the bill.  Sure your not have a nationwide network of dealers, spares will have to come in from China (though Marine Power Solutions has a stock of for next day dispatch) and if you bought through them you do get up to a 3 year warranty but you pay more since you're dealing with the 'middleman' not the factory, even so  there is no getting away from it they are cheap and if you have a boat that has a smokey oil drinking BMC this could well be an option to consider so I thought I'd share what I had found out here

[Hockham Admiral]

Fascinating stuff, as ever, Robin!  

[NeilB]

Oh no, I've just typed a load of info out, hit the wrong button and deleted the lot 

 

Not got any time to redo as I'm about to leave for Southampton to start setting up the boat show stand.  The highlights were:

3 year warranty is good, but only supplies and not fits the defective item.  Only 2 dealers in the UK, would Chinese factory back them up with warranty issues, product support and training?

What is parts availability like?  Service items will probably be OK but what about more unusual items?

Very heavy engines, 37hp is 280kg, Beta 38 is 170kg and Volvo 40hp is 180kg.

Only 50A alternator, Beta has 100A, VP is 115A.

I've heard prices are not that much cheaper than Beta which are similar to Nanni. 

 

They are a new player and may well be good engines, I've not heard otherwise but they probably have not sold many.  The marine engine market, like other markets, is very tough at the moment.  I wish them well but other much larger companies have tried and failed in the marine world, BMW and VW spring to mind.

[Timbo]

To be honest...I wouldn't fit a new engine, I'd be on the look out for another BMC 1.5.

[BroadScot]

Call me old fashioned, but I am with you on this one Tim. The Astons I hired were mostly 1.5BMC and got very good mileage to the good old fashioned imperial gallon

 

Iain.

[petersjoy]

Saw these at the Crick Boat Show a couple of years ago, been watching since as i thought it is a good economical replacement for the BMC.

I am considering them but, until the BMC lets me down i will wait and see.

But i would like a shiny new engine soon, to match the rest of the work i've done on the boat.

Lorna is getting fed up of me going on about it.

Paul.

[LondonRascal]

This is purely from my point of view, and usually as I have found that is contrary to most peoples

 

Honestly how good are most warranties?  When you look into what is not covered and the fact you have to do so much to comply with  what is,  I am left thinking if they are all that worthwhile coupled with the fact some don't include the really expensive factor - labour.

 

As to comparable prices that is another bugbear of mine - how hard is it to get prices for engines online - Vetus, Penta, Beta, Nanni, Solé, Craftsman etc you have to make an enquiry and they give a quote and that makes me feel like you might get a different quote than another person from a different part of the country for the same engine.  It's not so transparent.  I mean you may get a better price, or you might end up not and paying more and you would never really know. At least with these you can see right from the start the price lists and if you do a deal even better.

 

Perkins or BMC engines of course have been very good diligent units for many many years  but I personally would not want to have something which had done goodness knows how many hours, for which spares are getting harder to source and which are using increasingly reconditioned parts.  Yes they are good engines because they go on and on but they are not at all smooth and many of them (in hire boats) drink oil rather a lot.  More over the low sulphur fuel now being used over the Broads is fine for new engines, but is not nice at all for the trusty old BMC's and Perkins out there slowly but surely their time is coming to an end.

 

Now these engines only suit really inland boaters, it is where a lot of the other marine engines have their sweet spot too - you don't see Nanni engines in high value sports boats - Volvo Penta have that market pretty much to themselves.

 

A good example though would be someone owning a Seamaster 30 with either a pair of 4108/4107 Perkins or BMC 2.5's in them - the boats are worth about £25,000 but some I have seen down to about £21,000. To replace those two engines with a pair of 'branded' engines would probably not leave you with much change from £20,000.  But your boat, while now more appealing to a new purchaser one day would not claw back anything like the  original outlay of the new engines  - so it does not make economic sense, to do, so that's why you never see people putting new engines in these boats - they make do and go on, especially as it seems many boaters buy a boat then 2-5 years later sell it on and get another - usually larger, or slightly newer and 'move up the ladder' of boat ownership.

 

But if you could get a pair of 60HP engines  for under £9,000 which includes VAT and a branded PRM gearbox - it suddenly makes it seem like a more promising proposition . It might add some value, it might not but if it was me I'd be thinking purely about the fact  I now had brand new engines under the floor which with care, should last - even if they went kaput after 10,000 hours at this sort of price you just throw away and replace. 

 

I know morally one has to ask is it right - I mean there is a reason there are cheap, I don't think it is down to being poorly manufactured, (look at the pictures of the factory - looks pretty clean/deent to my eye)

 

 

 

 

 

 

but more the people (let's face it skilled engineers) are being paid peanuts which workers in the UK or indeed the EU would never get out of bed for, there is  also a whole supply chain and network of dealers too who would very much suffer if too many started ordering engines in pallets from the far east but I think it is worth thinking about if you have a choice of keeping what you do and paying out on parts and keeping them going or being able to afford a new engine even if it is not from someone you know. 

 

It is much the same as stopping using Tesco, and getting your shopping from Lidl - once you have got used to the taste it is hard to justify going back to Tesco and spending more.

[quo vadis]

Do Lidl sell engines?

[LondonRascal]

Do Lidl sell engines?

No, but then neither do Tesco - the point is increasingly these days people are daring to try the unknown.

 

Take me using a Samsung expensive monitor for my computer, even my TV is Samsung, the one downstairs Sony. 

 

One day the Samsung monitor stopped working, I looked to reaplce it and found Hans.G - I've now got two 25" Hans G monitors  for less than the cost of one Samsung - they are just as vivid, clear and nice to my eyes as the Samsung - they have both worked a treat since 2011 so it has very much made me question brand loyalty.

[quo vadis]

OK I understand I will buy my next engine from HansG

[finny]

I tend to be weary of all things cheaper .......its a bit like Kia cars very cheap to buy but the price and the availability on some of the spares makes you wonder of its worth going down that road in the first place as a cousin of mine has just found out

 

fiiny

[LondonRascal]

I thought Kia cars came with a 7 year warranty - and it all feels like their concept is buy now cheaper, and in 7 years will you still want that car or 'upgrade' to the new model.  Bit like mobile phones just 'throw away' culture.

 

Saying this, if you had bought a more expensive Audi, would those parts be cheaper because your initial outlay on the car was more I don't think so.

[sos247]

I started with the marine diesel engine business 30yrs ago and things have drastically changed since then. There were also several companies in the UK who marinised base engines, however they have long gone now.... ;-(  Even locally there were nearly 10 different companies who purchased 'base' engines & marinised them. Again these all sadly finished when the boat building industry declined......   

These 'foreign' base engines have been around for quite some time however, the small marine diesel industry for the inland waterways is actually quite small, so not too many companies get involved now. Companies like Volvo & Yanmar don't even target this market anymore.....

 

Duffields of Norwich were the first company locally who got involved with Kubota based engines (Nanni) and these were first fitted on the Broads Authority launches........but it did take several years before theses engines proved themselves with the local engineers!

With the increase with 'labour costs',  it also didn't take long before it was more economically viable to replace a complete engine instead of 'overhauling' the old PERKINS/BMC units etc. Spare parts started to become difficult to source, and quality issues also became noticeable when manufacturing of these 'spare parts' moved to China/India etc. 

 

Basically there isn't a 'bad' engine produced now, its just some of them have differences. Support & spare parts is also now key to engine choice, pricing is generally very similar despite whats published. The only savings to be made are cutting out the 'middle men', but this system works on most products produced today! Will it ever change?? Sadly i don't think so, we all have limited monies and we all have to be careful with what we spend. 

 

Kubota is still a well known &  proven base unit for this industry, but this is because hire fleets both on the broads & the canals have used them since the 80's.....so we are all now 'familiar' with them. There will be just as good engines out there but its just the risk factor......      

 

Its also a known fact, that a NEW Kubota engine leaves the production line 'every 40 seconds'.......but both Beta Marine & Nanni only actually represent less then 1% of Kubota's total output  (yes, 1%) Marine is a TINY industry worldwide (i.e. below 50hp)

So for a 'new' company (regarding small marine diesel engine manufacturing) to actually survive needs a large market share, and they need to achieve this as quick as possible....... As NeilB said both BMW & VW failed and they pumped £££millions into the industry......VW are still trying, but BMW walked away big time!

Engines are no different to any product....just do the research and ideally test before you buy!!

Regards
Jason
 
        

[MauriceMynah]

We live in a Nanni state, and I feel Beta for it

[BroadScot]

We live in a Nanni state, and I feel Beta for it

Oh MM..... really!!!

 

Iain

[finny]

Well you are right about the 7 year warranty Robin - and Kia have been very good in terms of supplying a courtesy car - although it won't pull the caravan and the family holiday has been cancelled ......its been 19 days in waiting for a transmission part on a 9 month old car .......he was also told if it wasn't under warranty the bill would be the best part of 2k .....gulp

 

 

I also Drive an Audi  - have done for years and there was a time when I would take one around the clock before it was 18 months old ...........plenty of services but never ever had to buy any parts  ever, even though there is good availability on spares ........and that's the point iam trying to make .........tried and tested should be a major factor overall

 

I remember when I first passed my driving test and was about to buy my first car with no idea what to buy ?.......my dad said when you are buying a car always look at what the taxi drivers are driving - they need to be good to go to work

 

let me tell you though a black cab was no good for pulling the chicks though ............

 

 

fx4fin

[Guest]

I bow to the greater in-depth knowledge of modern engines shown so clearly in this thread,

 

...and speaking in more general terms, I would say that engineering manufacture has changed enormously in the past two decades.

 

Computer controlled milling and machining has automated most of the skill element, which just leaves design and quality control.

 

The quality of an engine has far less bearing now on where it was made.

[MauriceMynah]

Whilst I actually agree with the overall message here, I do believe it's a bit unfair to compare the concept of a low budget engine with a low budget car. There are so many corners that may be cut in a car that cannot occur with an engine... plastic verses wooden dashboard for example.

"The availability of" and "the requirement for" spares are about the only two real issues ...IMMNAO that is.

 

 

 

 

 

( IMMNAO ...In My Mind Numbingly Arrogant Opinion)

[littlesprite]

I was curious how much an out of warranty Kia / Hyundai (same company) was, and found a 59 plate low mileage Cee'd on Autotrader for £3k. That says a lot, doesn't it.

A 59 plate Audi would obviously attract a higher second hand value but a lot of that can be down to the original purchase price compared to a 59 cee'd.

The best way of comparing second hand cars is to look at the AA/RAC breakdown figures.

[Guest]

....."The availability of" and "the requirement for" spares are about the only two real issues ...

 

My thoughts too, MM.

 

...and certainly the two points taken together.

 

I'd much prefer to run and maintain a YingTong  turbo than a Rolls Royce, if the cheapie was reliable.

[Guest]

I don't wish to fan any flames by starting a new thread, or being clearer with this post, so I apologise if it may intrigue some people.

 

An excellent reply, LondonRascal.  (not here, but somewhere else).

 

Clear, concise, and right where the exact problem is.

[VetChugger]

Sneaky! Share your opinion though!

[LondonRascal]

Heavens above! We are on the verge of taking a topic...off...topic!

 

Some things need to be said, I said them and I'll leave things be 'over there'. 

[finny]

Iam not knocking anything new or cheaper on the market but with regards anything new then do some homework on after sales .......just don't ask the salesman more so if he is all teeth and smiles

Factfindinfin

[BroadScot]

Heavens above! We are on the verge of taking a topic...off...topic!

 

Some things need to be said, I said them and I'll leave things be 'over there'. 

Off Topic? I do it often here Robin.    

 

Iain.