Interesting New Sign

[TheQ]

I have seen boats planning on the broads, Last year one came down river round the corner at Dydlers Mill on the plane saw me in the rescue boat putting the buoys out. He immediately dropped off the plane turned round and then disappeared back up river.

But generally it's not planning boats that are the problem, It's day boats going flat out to get to the next pub, Hire boats going flat out trying to find they're next mooring before they are full up, and multi-story private boats built for ocean going that are on tickover but still speeding and leaving a big hole in the water behind them and if they open the throttle a little to manoeuver they leave a VERY big hole in the water

[MauriceMynah]

Yes, I think we all understand the potential dangers Hylander, but as we all also know, we have a duty to look after ourselves, and on a boat, that's all the time.

I usually know in advance if my boat is going to rock due to boat wash, I either saw or heard the speeding craft go past. Yes I know they shouldn't do it, but they do and have done for as long as I remember. Think "Hullaballoos" of Arthur Ransom fame. He knew about them back then.

Incidents where scalding type injuries have occurred owing to speeding boats are mercifully rare. Yes, they have happened, but rarely. Given that the smaller the boat the rockier it is, and also given that these smaller boats are most frequently private ones, where the owners are aware of the risks, steaming cups of tea are handled with due caution.

I have said it many times before, Boating is dangerous. It involves water in which one can drown or on which is an unsteady platform. Lets face it, we can drown, be scalded to death by a really hot cup of tea (other beverages are available) be gassed by the fumes from a neighbouring boat or even sliced into mince by any one of thousands of whirling props, and whilst the fault may lie with the idiot who was on the other boat, the responsibility to stay safe is your own.

But back to the problems of speeding boats, if no effective answer has been found in all the years that motor boats have been about, my guess is that it never will be.

Having said that, I can offer two fool proof solutions, either of which would be very popular with certain people, though not the same people.

Remove all speed limits, then there're are none to break, or remove all motor boats as sailies are exempt.  :)

[smellyloo]

1 hour ago, MauriceMynah said:

Yes, I think we all understand the potential dangers Hylander, but as we all also know, we have a duty to look after ourselves, and on a boat, that's all the time.

I usually know in advance if my boat is going to rock due to boat wash, I either saw or heard the speeding craft go past. Yes I know they shouldn't do it, but they do and have done for as long as I remember. Think "Hullaballoos" of Arthur Ransom fame. He knew about them back then.

Incidents where scalding type injuries have occurred owing to speeding boats are mercifully rare. Yes, they have happened, but rarely. Given that the smaller the boat the rockier it is, and also given that these smaller boats are most frequently private ones, where the owners are aware of the risks, steaming cups of tea are handled with due caution.

I have said it many times before, Boating is dangerous. It involves water in which one can drown or on which is an unsteady platform. Lets face it, we can drown, be scalded to death by a really hot cup of tea (other beverages are available) be gassed by the fumes from a neighbouring boat or even sliced into mince by any one of thousands of whirling props, and whilst the fault may lie with the idiot who was on the other boat, the responsibility to stay safe is your own.

But back to the problems of speeding boats, if no effective answer has been found in all the years that motor boats have been about, my guess is that it never will be.

Having said that, I can offer two fool proof solutions, either of which would be very popular with certain people, though not the same people.

Remove all speed limits, then there're are none to break, or remove all motor boats as sailies are exempt.  :)

I applaud all of the above.

You shouldn't go boating if you want a completely stable floor.

[Vaughan]

16 hours ago, TheQ said:

I would think the sign actually said,.    Ministry of Defence,

Well now, there's a thing. That is the way it is spelt, but not its original (English) spelling in that context, where defense is fortification against a threat from an enemy and defence (in American) is what your lawyer tries to do in court.

So whilst you are right in your comment, the spelling was correct, in my use of the word.

Perhaps we should not look too closely at spelling on this forum   since there are other words with dual spellings which are sometimes used out of context here, such as affect and effect.

Nowadays a lot of the pleasure in use of English is sadly being lost in the vernacular.

Sorry, but I couldn't resist a reply to that one!  

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Bobdog said:

There's a rumour that the BA are experimenting with one of those signs that have appeared on the roads in recent years, one that lights up and tells you what speed you are doing, somewhere in the Wroxham/Horning area.  Not been up that way for a while, can anybody confirm?

There certainly is a light up sign at Wroxham although it lights up to say it's 4mph and doesn't tell you your speed. It also lights up for every passing boat and not just those speeding.

[MauriceMynah]

2 minutes ago, Jayfire said:

It also lights up for every passing boat and not just those speeding.

How do YOU know   

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

How do YOU know   

Well it lit up for all the boats that I was stuck behind going about 2mph early one morning 

[grendel]

It strikes me that the person who put the sign up and films everyone is doing themselves a disfavour, by filming just about every boat passing and phoning / reporting them, all he will do is succeed in getting himself branded as a nuisance by the authorities, then when someone does go through speeding with excess wash, his report will be ignored the same as all the rest - 'the boy who cried wolf'

[macroft1]

It's the same as those motorists who sit in the outside lanes of dual carriageways and believe it's there right to be there because anyone wanting to overtake would be speeding!!

Nonone should speed but it's up to the authorities to enforce the limits!

[TheQ]

Just now, macroft1 said:

It's the same as those motorists who sit in the outside lanes of dual carriageways and believe it's there right to be there because anyone wanting to overtake would be speeding!!

Nonone should speed but it's up to the authorities to enforce the limits!

And most of those don't realise that their speedometer could be reading 10% +2.something or other mph high.

Therefore their indicated 70 could, near enough. be actually 61Mph

[Guest ExMemberKingFisher]

I'm with Jeremy Clarkson on this one. If there is enough space for me to undertake the car stuck in the outside lane, then he is the one who should be prosecuted for lane hogging, not me.

In all seriousness the American view is that changing lanes is when most accidents happen. Since a legal overtake should involve you changing lanes twice, there is two risky manoeuvres. This is why it is not illegal to pass on the right, or left if safe to do so. The idea is you make one lane move to overtake and stay there until your next overtake, thus reducing the amount of lanes moves and potential accidents.  

 

[macroft1]

1 minute ago, KingfishersTime said:

I'm with Jeremy Clarkson on this one. If there is enough space for me to undertake the car stuck in the outside lane, then he is the one who should be prosecuted for lane hogging, not me.

In all seriousness the American view is that changing lanes is when most accidents happen. Since a legal overtake should involve you changing lanes twice, there is two risky manoeuvres. This is why it is not illegal to pass on the right, or left if safe to do so. The idea is you make one lane move to overtake and stay there until your next overtake, thus reducing the amount of lanes moves and potential accidents.  

 

Well said but have you noticed their regard for the speed limit disappears the second you chose to undertake!!

[Guest ExMemberKingFisher]

2 minutes ago, macroft1 said:

Well said but have you noticed their regard for the speed limit disappears the second you chose to undertake!!

To be fair, I know what you mean, but very rarely undertake anything in case they decide to move left. What I have noticed more and more these days, especially on the A13, is drivers in the outside lane doing 55mph, who eventually when flashed will move over and then as soon as you go past, will move back out to the fast lane again, even though there is no reason to. I put it down to them having learnt to drive in a country where they drive on the right and they haven't computed that in this country the right hand lane is the overtaking lane.

The other group who I find really frustrating are the Addison Lee drivers. They rarely get up to the speed limit and will more often than not hog either the middle or outside lanes, yet are meant to be professional drivers!!!!

[BuffaloBill]

Any lanes outside of the nearside one are for overtaking ONLY.

It is against the law to stay in those lanes if you are not actually 

overtaking anything. You are required by law to move to the

inner lane once the manoeuvre is complete and there is no other

vehicles to overtake regardless of your speed. This is of course

unless directed by Motorway overhead Information Screens to

use all lanes during busy periods or by Police officers.

I believe this was brought in about 5yrs ago? Matt could tell us more.

Back on topic.....you will never stop speeding in boats unless they

are controlled by GPS systems which probably isn't that far away 

[Bound2Please]

I believe its always been in the highway code that its KEEP LEFT EXCEPT WHEN OVERTAKING.  The motorway sign one Im not sure on

Charlie

[TheQ]

Back on the water,

Iit is quite amusing too find people who will only overtake on the left, I'm bimbling near the middle of the river carefully , with a line of boats in tow. Having to keep out from the bank  for draft or trees or corner reasons, and you get some dayboats desperately trying to  find a gap in the traffic coming the other way, when there is a huge gap between me and the bank.

[MauriceMynah]

In fairness Mr Q,  Finding a dayboat "desperately trying" to do it correctly (as they see it) would be a delight to me. but you've got me wondering... What's the steering technique when you have a line of boats in tow?

[JennyMorgan]

1 hour ago, TheQ said:

Back on the water,

Iit is quite amusing too find people who will only overtake on the left, I'm bimbling near the middle of the river carefully , with a line of boats in tow. Having to keep out from the bank  for draft or trees or corner reasons, and you get some dayboats desperately trying to  find a gap in the traffic coming the other way, when there is a huge gap between me and the bank.

Far worse are the ones who insist on overtaking on the right even if there is only a ten foot gap on my right and it means them ducking under my boom whilst there is forty foot of open water on my left! I have even had a GP barge past on my right and in doing so has had to push hard against the reed bed despite which I could have put my hand out and touched the dazzling acre of gel coat as it roared past.

[TheQ]

Picking up the boats, is like picking up a line of loose coupled freight wagons on the railways, you do NOT accelerate until they have all taken up the slack in their towing lines. otherwise the last boat in the tow could get huge jerk and rip their mooring cleats out.

This means if I am towing from Horning Sailing club to Black Horse broads you'll see me slowly circling, in front of the club in as wide a circle as possible, collecting a boat or two on each time round, easing off each time one ties on the tail. Once I have the full tow, and everyone's line is tight, I can slowly accelerate up the river. 

Then as you approach the broad entrance you slow down very carefully as sailing boats slip through the water better than any motorboat, and they would catch up if you slow too quickly. Taking the corner very wide so you can see if anything is coming,  you curve your way in.

Dropping off the boats requires another gentle slow down until there is little pressure on the tow ropes and they each drop off the tail one at a time.

 

Then you have problems depending what you are towing with,

It you're in a motor cruiser, (such as an elysian 27) they have enough weight to go where you want them, whatever they do behind.  Your second person should be watching the towed boats should their be a problem, while the helm looks at where you are going.

So it's gentle curves, being very aware of trees and likely shallows, such as the one on the first corner on  right as you exit Horning going down river.

Your motor cruiser may be 9ft 6inches wide plus fenders, so your draft of 2ft 2inches is 5ft+ at least 2ft clearance from the bank  is 7ft out from the bank. If they are tied to your Starboard quarter their 3ft 6 inches draft is only 4ft from the bank.....

 Often with a motor cruiser it's safer to have two tows of 3 boats from each quarter rather than one long line of six boats.

 

In a dory it's a different story towing,

If you are towing a line of keel boats, each one is heavier than the dory and has more rudder and keel area to steer with. So if the boat immediately behind you decides  to wander off course, they drag the stern of the dory round, so you could lose control. This is where the second man should help by shouting at the towed boat to correct their course.

You in a dory are also much closer to the width of a sailing boat and it's easier to realise you are going too close to banks or shallows but don't forget the trees!!. You can only tow from the central towing point on our dories, trying to use one of the side  mooring points on the dory will turn the dory off course all the time.

so it's still gentle curves, but you have to let the boats behind know where you're going!

If I have a single boat to tow a short distance say across the river, then it's easier to do it in reverse, just point the point the outboard where you want to go and go.. (too fast and it's water over the stern....)

[Viking23]

I think these roadside speed indicators on the approach to villages are great, it becomes a competition as to who can get the highest score in a 100 m drag race. In our village they were located on the hill coming up to our village, this is a straight road so included a "Hill climb" competition to.

I'm not sure this really went on though.... just my weird imagination.

 

I wish we had these on the broads, I would calibrate my rev counter vs speed over land, preferably both up and down stream. This would help to prevent further incidences of speeding, if you really know what the rev counter represents.

Yes you can do this with the 1/4 mile markers, 1000 revs =   4000 revs= etc, do some simple maths and you have an algorithm for both up stream and down stream.  or use GPS  for instant information. Surely for the price of a co alarm we can have accurate speed information. So if a boat is fitted with such a device, ( 2 needed if dual helm) and the authorities log a speeding incidence,  then go to court do not pass go...  well instant on the spot fine. Done and dusted at the location, BA bring in loads of dosh, which they can use to lease more moorings, and employ  more rangers out of hours too, to bring in even  more revenue, self funding, everyone is a winner.

I am sure many boaters or riverside properties, would allow the odd ranger to sit in their forward well, or sit at a table for a few hours to witness the speeding.

 

Richard

[Regulo]

6 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

Far worse are the ones who insist on overtaking on the right even if there is only a ten foot gap on my right and it means them ducking under my boom whilst there is forty foot of open water on my left! I have even had a GP barge past on my right and in doing so has had to push hard against the reed bed despite which I could have put my hand out and touched the dazzling acre of gel coat as it roared past.

It's worse in a cruiser, as 9 times out of 10 you can't even see a dayboat creeping up on the inside. Nearly had a collision a few weeks back, dayboat right alongside on the right, if Rene hadn't spotted him, it could have got tight, as I was concentrating on passing astern of a tacking yacht. I have mirrors on the midline and port for rear vision, but didn't think I'd need one on the starboard side!

[JennyMorgan]

Re calibrating 

10 minutes ago, Viking23 said:

I think these roadside speed indicators on the approach to villages are great, it becomes a competition as to who can get the highest score in a 100 m drag race. In our village they were located on the hill coming up to our village, this is a straight road so included a "Hill climb" competition to.

I'm not sure this really went on though.... just my weird imagination.

 

I wish we had these on the broads, I would calibrate my rev counter vs speed over land, preferably both up and down stream. This would help to prevent further incidences of speeding, if you really know what the rev counter represents.

Yes you can do this with the 1/4 mile markers, 1000 revs =   4000 revs= etc, do some simple maths and you have an algorithm for both up stream and down stream.  or use GPS  for instant information. Surely for the price of a co alarm we can have accurate speed information. So if a boat is fitted with such a device, ( 2 needed if dual helm) and the authorities log a speeding incidence,  then go to court do not pass go...  well instant on the spot fine. Done and dusted at the location, BA bring in loads of dosh, which they can use to lease more moorings, and employ  more rangers out of hours too, to bring in even  more revenue, self funding, everyone is a winner.

I am sure many boaters or riverside properties, would allow the odd ranger to sit in their forward well, or sit at a table for a few hours to witness the speeding.

 

Richard

There is a measured quarter mile between Aldeby & Beccles for example. Such things were once common on the Broads, maybe we should remind the Broads Authority of their usefulness. On the other hand a handheld GPS is cheap enough on E-Bay.

[TheQ]

Yes any boat sail or Motor trying to go through a gap that isn't there is a problem, at least if they squeeze under your boom, and you have the room, you can move out into the river, Though if that is against the tide in little wind that could be a problem.

I've seen day boats trying to squeeze between two running sailing boats, to try to go under the boom,  if the helmsman on the boat under which the day boat is trying to go isn't aware early enough, he cant pull the boom in, in enough time to save it from damage.

I'm currently rebuilding a sailing boat which you sit in facing forward steering with your feet and pulling the ropes with your hands. this gives little ability to look behind you. so I'm on the look out for a pair of wing mirrors that won't catch the ropes!!

 I've also had regulo's problem of day boats sneaking up on the rear starboard quarter, which is a problem for me as the canopy has a huge blind spot in that area.

The 1/4 mile testing signs on the straight from Dydlers mill to Horning have recently been up dated by BA with an additional sign say something like,

Check your speed, "quoted" time from this to the next sign = 5mph

[JennyMorgan]

3 minutes ago, TheQ said:

 

The 1/4 mile testing signs on the straight from Dydlers mill to Horning have recently been up dated by BA with an additional sign say something like,

Check your speed, "quoted" time from this to the next sign = 5mph

Thumbs up to the Authority.

[MauriceMynah]

I'm in total agreement with Vaughan in that the problem is wash, and that wash is governed purely by speed through water and not speed over land. We also know that different hulls create different levels of wash, so all your "sat navs" and other gismos are a total waste of time as far as the actual problem is. Even the measured 1/4 mile posts don't give the skipper the needed information.

Gentlemen, I have the solution, and although it's simple, it will be next to impossible to police. thus making it perfect for the Broads.

Sadly it can only work on boats with Rev counters, but that's not a problem any greater than those we already have.

Firstly each  boats rev counter will be marked off with colour coded zones we shall say green, amber, red, and black. these "zones" will be tailored to each boat and will be based on the amount of wash which that boat generates when at those revs.

Instead of speed limits being displayed as numbers, they would be displayed as colours and called "Wash limits"

HOWZAT !!!