Two Strokes: Is This The End?

[High6]

Well, they've killed off the decent vacuum cleaners. Now it looks as if your handy strimmers, chainsaws and hedge trimmers could be for the chop.

http://joannenova.com.au/2017/09/update-malcolm-roberts-one-nation-explain-the-two-stroke-mower-ban-is-about-real-pollution-not-co2/

 

[Paul]

I understand Her Majesty's government is also considering banning flatulence because of concerns over the greenhouses gasses released, although it has been suggested that the Chief Secretary to the Treasury is pushing for the introduction of a Trump Tax......

[ChrisB]

I have a very large hedged garden with large plantings of shrubbery. I over the last 3 years or so have scrapped my 2 stroke power tools and bought professional quality rechargeable. 

They are not cheap my hedge cutter was £475, Charger £120 and battery £175 but worth every penny, you pick it up in spring and it works. I now have a chain saw, strimmer and pruner as well all on rechargable, interchangable battery. And the reduction in noise is wonderful.

If I did not have so much grass I would love to go electic for mowing.

[Polly]

I'd suggest you buy a cow Chris, but the emissions are known to be problematic.

[MauriceMynah]

Or geese. great for grass cutting and great for Christmas and Easter. The by product can be a bit of a problem though.

[TheQ]

I must admit I've been slowly moving to rechargables for my large garden. For noise reduction, and the fact you press a button and it goes. My lawn mower is four stroke anyway, I just wish they'd fit better silencers...

They do make electric ride on mowers though https://www.lawnmowersdirect.co.uk/product/husqvarna-ride-on-battery-lawnmower not cheap either..

However that story is from Australia and not really relevant here. New conventional 2 stroke outboards and motor vehicles have been banned in the EU for years .

[MauriceMynah]

I can see the noise of two stroke tools being an issue, but I really cant believe that pollution is another significant one. Smokey? yes. Loads of oil in the smoke? yes. But it's just the number of them that suggests to me that they're not really an issue. Two stroke outboards on somewhere like Lake Windermere would be a problem, less so on the broads but not so little as to be ignored.

Like most inventions, the two stroke engine has its place. It is a light weight power unit great for certain jobs. What needs to be done,. ideally world wide, is to look at what things cause significant pollution, and what are the alternative options . Balances have to be struck. For example, Cows fart but we want beef, therefore we need to breed low emission cattle.

Whilst I desperately hope that this thread doesn't evolve into an electric car/boat discussion some of the arguments do hold true with power tools too. 

[marshman]

Someone remind me how long ago new 2 stroke outboards have been banned??

So this is "new" news?? You have to remember , technology means things do move forward and just because your car no longer has a V12 engine in front of you, does not mean you cannot get from A to B more efficiently , cleaner, and economically!!

Having had 2 strokes, 4 strokes etc etc, I know what I prefer - life does move on!! Even for those of you who still have 2 stroke machines forget about blue smoke, use Aspen fuel and see the difference, especially as you do not even have to mix it!!

 

[MauriceMynah]

I think this is about the other applications of the two stroke engine MM, Chain saws, brush cutters and that sort of thing.

[stumpy]

You can now get scented two stroke oil, sort of strawberryish  but nothing beats the sweet smell of Castrol R30 in the morning! 

[marshman]

As I said, use Aspen fuel - little smoke, no oily plugs, easier starting and unlike fuel from the pump, much, much longer shelf life!

[High6]

6 minutes ago, stumpy said:

You can now get scented two stroke oil, sort of strawberryish  but nothing beats the sweet smell of Castrol R30 in the morning! 

I didn't believe it but, yep, there it is https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m570.l1311.R4.TR4.TRC0.A0.H1.Xstrawberry+oil.TRS0&_nkw=strawberry+2+stroke+oil&_sacat=0.

Some may be old enough to remember "Four gallons and four shots" - Redex of course, the distinctive smell of Brands Hatch with John Surtees against Geoff Duke, but thanks, Marshman, I'll look out for Aspen.

My strimmer is nearly 20 years old and has never failed to start immediately. At 100 yards it is quieter than the wind turbine 300 yards away, certainly less than local traffic and frequent helicopters (perceived noise level halves with distance). There is little or no noticeable smoke once the choke is pushed in ( I have emphysema so that would be a serious problem for me). As for a few 2-stroke motors raising the temperature of the universe - don't get me started!

WIth vacuum cleaners, if you limit the power to half it will be less effective with stubborn animal hairs and deep pile dirt. You will have to spend twice as long pushing it around and probably use the same amount of energy. But really, my argument is with the "nanny" regulations. Do we honestly need the state to tell us the power of our vacuums or the efficiency of our outboards? To my mind the best regulators are customer satisfaction and price.

 

 

[ChrisB]

36 minutes ago, stumpy said:

You can now get scented two stroke oil, sort of strawberryish  but nothing beats the sweet smell of Castrol R30 in the morning! 

We used to put a drop of Castrol R in the tank of our Spitfires and Sprites in the 60s to leave the aroma as you roared off from the Pub!!!!

As everyone did back then!

Better than a parfum de Paris.

[High6]

Quite right, Chris, and outside the Ace cafe on the North Circular. Hit the jukebox, round the roundabout and back before the record finished. Never did make that, though, on my Arial Leader. Now that was a smoker! Did manage to destroy  a piston, though, from the Saltbox Cafe and down Death Hill.

As I recall, there were no nanny regulations then to wear helmets or seat belts, but I'll allow them those two. Biking and even motoring today is just too tragic.

 

 

[High6]

A quote from Pistonheads forum: "I'm not sure that Briggs and Stratton would recommend Castrol R in your lawn mower engine but I finished a normally tedious 90 minute weekend mow with a big smile on my face today... "

Sorry, ChrisB, I mispronunciated Castrol R as Redex due to advanced years. Can't remember when I last had Alzheimer's.

[ChrisB]

Castrol R is a natural veg oil in fact it is modified castor oil. If you go to places like the Goodwood revival races and watch the Mk1 Lotus Cortinas, A35s, Mini Cooper S and the like you can still get that magic smell. Those were the days when you could buy 105 Octane.

[stumpy]

7 hours ago, High6 said:

Quite right, Chris, and outside the Ace cafe on the North Circular. Hit the jukebox, round the roundabout and back before the record finished. Never did make that, though, on my Arial Leader. Now that was a smoker! Did manage to destroy  a piston, though, from the Saltbox Cafe and down Death Hill.

As I recall, there were no nanny regulations then to wear helmets or seat belts, but I'll allow them those two. Biking and even motoring today is just too tragic.

 

 

Something very similar used to occur at Stracey Arms, Acle turn and back I was told. Of course I'd never indulge in such practices. 

[marshman]

Certainly if you read such magazines as Which, you will see that cutting the wattage of a vacuum cleaner does not make it work less efficiently - if that was the case how do you explain why two machines of equal power operate entirely differently with one being a best buy , and the other , a don't buy!!

And there is plenty of evidence to suggest that a 1200cc petrol engine of todays vintage is many many times more powerful than the same size engine built 50 years ago. You cannot therefore assume automatically that cutting the power , reduces efficiency - in the end my guess is that reducing the power will have little or no discernible benefit to that. But what it will do is save, overall quite a lot of electricity and I guarantee they will be quieter!  Is that not overall, a better result?

[High6]

Power = work done, therefore less power = less work achieved. The energy required to achieve that power may be reduced by better design, less friction etc., but at the end of the day you wouldn't use a toothbrush to paint the Forth bridge.

[Malanka]

This nonesense is all about reducing peak load and nothing to do with efficiency per se. The amount of energy required to boil a fixed volume of water is the same if the kettle is 100 W or 1000 W all that changes is the time over which that energy is transferred to the water. The people who thought up this rubbish are or were scientific illiterates and shouldnt be in charge of energy policy in any way.

 

It buys into the pre-conception that domestic use of electricity is a major issue. Therefore we must do something...This is perhaps partly true but not in the sense that most folks assume. One of the biggest uses of electricity domestically is the provision of water in the home to flush it down the loo. Many folks don't give it a seconds thought that you turn the tap and water comes out, why would they.  Every single  millilitre has to be pumped, mostly uphill by the most humongous water pumps, then boosted several times along the way by humongous water pumps. The old joke about the bond film ending and everyone rushing to put the kettle on is true but the bigger issue is everyone rushing to the loo and flushing it. Billions of gallons of water would need to be moved instantly way more than the energy required to boil the kettles which may take two or three minutes. Remember kettle efficiency used to be measured by how quickly it boiled your water. Not anymore.....You can't make this stuff up. Oh and these are EU commission requirements.

Most countries that have these capabilities have something called the spinning reserve that gets switched in at the right moment. In CH this is easy as its Wasserkraft as they say. (hydro electric). Uk its both this and the non renewable sources (until someone invents a way to store it of course) Hydro is such storage of course but not everywhere is like switzerland with valleys everywhere.

The equation is simple with electricity if you have efficient electric motors and most are these days then reducing the number of Watts just makes the task performed take longer. 1000 W x ten minutes is the same as 500W x twenty minutes.

If we cast our minds back and remember the old black and decker ads from years ago. Their drills were always sold on how many watts it was. the Bosch equivalent never had the same wattage value. the reason was simple Bosch used a very efficient electric motor and Black and Decker didn't so the wattage had to be higher to achieve the same torque values from poorly wound motors. I'm sure there are enough sparkies on here who can explain that better than me. My knowledge is purely from the physics perspective.

Rant over...

 

Post Brexit please let us go back to old style bulbs that don't require me to immediately ventilate the room and leave for 15  minutes, not walk on the area with the bulb in then use sticky tape to pick up the phosphorous powder in the carpet. That follks is from the US EPA (Environmental Protection Agency) that then goes on to say dont worry at all it's not an issue. (say what! leave the room ventilated, get out and do not re-enter for how long? Not an issue! Huh go figure.)

LEDs are fine but not universally liked. How come its not ok to eat minute quantities of mercury in fish but it is OK to inhale it if I break a bulb? Medically speaking inhalation is waaaaaay worse.

We can metablise mercury at low levels so consumption technically is natural but I draw the line at breathing it because the commission tells me I must to save the planet. 

 

M

[High6]

Aah ... the voice of reason. How rare and delightful!

[Bound2Please]

On 9/16/2017 at 21:54, marshman said:

And there is plenty of evidence to suggest that a 1200cc petrol engine of todays vintage is many many times more powerful than the same size engine built 50 years ago

Could this not be down to the extra gears in the gear box?????????????????????

Charlie

[WherryNice]

Engines of both fuel types are much much more powerful nowadays(think 125ps from 1400cc petrol), this is due to developments in engine management, general efficiency improvements(breathing/lubrication etc)and pretty much universal use of turbochargers. The basic output of the engine has nothing to do with gear ratios although having more of them allows better use of what power/torque the engine does make..

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