So You Can Go Swimming!

[Vaughan]

4 hours ago, JennyMorgan said:

I note that on a popular Broads related facebook page there is a very real suggestion that boaters should consider blockading this event and hogging the 24hr moorings.

Could I remind us all please, that this suggestion has not come from this forum, according to Peter, and I am quite sure that none of us here would would be irresponsible enough to consider such a thing.

[ExMemberBobdog]

I’m a Norfolk man, plain and simple.  My home county has always been a place of warmth, friendship and welcome, and Broadland a key part of that, something of which I have always been proud. This forum has for some time been slowly degenerating into a place of nastiness, led by a highly opinionated and intolerant minority.  The many people I know and share time with on the Broads are friendly and gentle, caring of others.  I have no time for the bitterness I see expressed here, and I truly hope, in the many days I spend on the rivers, never to meet any of those who express such vicious intolerance.

I’m gone, I won’t be back.  There are better things to do.

[Wussername]

32 minutes ago, Bobdog said:

I entirely understand, even though I disagree with, the safety concerns argument.  That’s a reasonable debate and I respect the views of those who disagree with my perspective.  What I can’t come to terms with is the extent to which this discussion has degenerated into a torrent of bile and invective, much of it directed at the motivations of the organiser of this event, and some of it perpetrated by moderators who should be setting an example.  I’m amazed at this on the so called ‘friendly forum’, and deeply ashamed, as many of you should be if you re-read what you have posted.  I’m even more amazed that the moderators have not locked his thread permanently; they temporarily did so when it was far less offensive than it has become now.

I am sorry Bobdog but I do not recognise any of your critical and decisive comments whatsoever with regard to the reasoned, knowledgeable and sincere comments made by JM and others which to my mind demonstrates a recognised and understanding evaluation of the situation. Without malice or personal vilification of the organiser. Simply a genuine concern. An important concern.  Understood by many on our waterways.

I personally wish Mel ever success with her venture, a lady well respected within her community, a lady who has achieved remarkable success within her sport. But, with respect not on the Waveney, an area, a venue, ill suited on so many levels with regard to her ambition by those who live, work and know these waters so well.

[grendel]

22 minutes ago, Bobdog said:

I entirely understand, even though I disagree with, the safety concerns argument.  That’s a reasonable debate and I respect the views of those who disagree with my perspective.  What I can’t come to terms with is the extent to which this discussion has degenerated into a torrent of bile and invective, much of it directed at the motivations of the organiser of this event, and some of it perpetrated by moderators who should be setting an example.  I’m amazed at this on the so called ‘friendly forum’, and deeply ashamed, as many of you should be if you re-read what you have posted.  I’m even more amazed that the moderators have not locked his thread permanently, they temporarily did so when it was far less offensive than it has become now.

while some of the comments may to you seem to have degenerated, they have not since the thread was re-opened got directly personal, where comments were aimed at named opponents, as they had when the thread was locked. we were asked to reopen the thread as further discussion was felt to be needed on such an important topic, so we did. 

Personally I dont feel I have done more than highlight the safety concerns as I saw them, and several alternative location that seem eminently more suitable have been proposed as safer options. the thread has not been locked as discussions were ongoing, and proceeding relatively civily.

Without any further input from the organiser, speculation was bound to occur, but bile and invective - not as such that I have seen.

While you may disagree with the safety concerns raised, that doesnt make them any less concerning to those that raised them in good faith.

It would only take one boat with a helm that displayed behaviour I see daily on the m25, and a sod you attitude to create a huge tradegy.

[Vaughan]

I was always taught "constructive criticism".

That is to to say - don't knock someone's idea unless you can offer a reasoned alternative.

I hope that is what I have done on this thread, by suggesting the gravel pits as well as the upper Yare, as practical venues.

It is entirely up to the organisers and the BA, if they read this, to decide if they wish to take that aboard, in their percieved wisdom.

[JennyMorgan]

Bob, that this thread has developed as it has shows very clearly that most if not all of us care passionately for the safety of others. By and large I suspect the same can be said of our feelings towards our beloved Broads. I hope that your teddy is not too bruised.

[vanessan]

11 minutes ago, grendel said:

It would only take one boat with a helm that displayed behaviour I see daily on the m25, and a sod you attitude to create a huge tradegy.

And there most definitely are helms that display that sort of behaviour. Thankfully not many!

[JohnK]

I’m a Norfolk man, plain and simple.  My home county has always been a place of warmth, friendship and welcome, and Broadland a key part of that, something of which I have always been proud. This forum has for some time been slowly degenerating into a place of nastiness, led by a highly opinionated and intolerant minority.  The many people I know and share time with on the Broads are friendly and gentle, caring of others.  I have no time for the bitterness I see expressed here, and I truly hope, in the many days I spend on the rivers, never to meet any of those who express such vicious intolerance.
I’m gone, I won’t be back.  There are better things to do.

I think it’s very sad that someone with a view that is different from the majority feels driven out.
Perhaps some people think that’s good as they won’t be challenged anymore.
BTW, it’s not just Bob who feels that way, it’s just that some of us aren’t brave enough to say it in the current climate here.
I think soon it’s likely that people with a minority opinion will leave here. I hope that’s what the majority want.

[dnks34]

You know I think theres a lot of over reacting going on here, nobody is driving anyone out and if we didnt have differing opinions what would be the point in discussing it. 

 

[Vaughan]

6 minutes ago, JohnK said:

I think it’s very sad that someone with a view that is different from the majority feels driven out.
Perhaps some people think that’s good as they won’t be challenged anymore.
BTW, it’s not just Bob who feels that way, it’s just that some of us aren’t brave enough to say it in the current climate here.
I think soon it’s likely that people with a minority opinion will leave here. I hope that’s what the majority want.

Sorry, but I don't think that's fair in this case. The reason that the majority seems to be against this idea is that the majority on a forum such as this have enough practical knowledge of the Broads to know it is not sensible and we have clearly explained why we feel that way.

This does NOT imply bullying, nor a wish to decry the opinions of others.

[Wussername]

4 minutes ago, JohnK said:

 

I think it’s very sad that someone with a view that is different from the majority feels driven out.
Perhaps some people think that’s good as they won’t be challenged anymore.
BTW, it’s not just Bob who feels that way, it’s just that some of us aren’t brave enough to say it in the current climate here.
I think soon it’s likely that people with a minority opinion will leave here. I hope that’s what the majority want.

 

Bobdog, JohnK. 

I am so sad that you both think so badly of us. 

Andrew

[dnks34]

Those of us who feel strongly about it have come up with a reasoned and substantiated argument for the event simply being in the wrong location, the only thing that those not in agreement have put forward is that we are all being nasty/negative/bitter etc

I agree with Bobdogs sentiment re Norfolk being warm and welcoming but that shouldnt mean we shouldnt speak up when we believe something isnt right.

Anyway, most of the Waveney is in Suffolk isnt it !!!! 

[JohnK]

Sorry, but I don't think that's fair in this case. The reason that the majority seems to be against this idea is that the majority on a forum such as this have enough practical knowledge of the Broads to know it is not practical and we have clearly explained why.
This does NOT imply bullying, nor a wish to decry the opinions of others.

However Bob has chosen to leave. Why is that?
I have no problem with the likes of yourself raising safety concerns, i think it’s great. Especially when those concerns are raised in appropriate places as JM has done. I don’t know if anyone else has done that. I would question the point of just saying it here.
My problem is the reaction other people with opposing views have received.
To be clear I’m not saying everyone who’s anti the swim is behaving badly any more than I’m saying everyone who’s pro the swim has behaved well.

[MauriceMynah]

When I left 'the other place' I made no abdication speech. I said nothing about 'never to darken your doorway again' I just stopped going there. This was the way many left at that time. Some years before a member made so many "I'm leaving" speeches I was only marginally surprised when he actually did. Each time he said he was going there was a mass of posts asking him not to.

I don't like abdication speeches and don't respond to them. (with this one exception). If Bobdog wishes to leave, he will. If he doesn't want to leave, he will not. He is an adult. He should do as he thinks right.

[JohnK]

When I left 'the other place' I made no abdication speech. I said nothing about 'never to darken your doorway again' I just stopped going there. This was the way many left at that time. Some years before a member made so many "I'm leaving" speeches I was only marginally surprised when he actually did. Each time he said he was going there was a mass of posts asking him not to.
I don't like abdication speeches and don't respond to them. (with this one exception). If Bobdog wishes to leave, he will. If he doesn't want to leave, he will not. He is an adult. He should do as he thinks right.

Normally I would agree with you 100%.
I’ve said exactly the same on other forums many times.
But this time it isn’t just one person overreacting.
I’m only going to say this once more and I’m going to be blunt.
Open debate isn’t encouraged here (it used to be but it isn’t right now), if people disagree with the majority view they receive personal attacks.
The end result of this is going to be a complete lack of debate here soon.
Now, I suspect I’m going to get a lot of posts telling me how wrong I am (probably by mods too). Of course I’m wrong, I hold a minority view. I’m probably an idiot.

[batrabill]

What JohnK said. 

[grendel]

can we get back to the topic in hand, too many threads recently have been derailed onto different topics, which then go on to become personal and lead to the topic being locked to the detriment of the original topic, so rather than discussing who is leaving and why, can we concentrate on the topic in hand - the proposed swim up the waveney, if you wish to discuss members departure, can we start a new thread for that please.

both sides of this debate have valid points and the only reason things get personal is when the original debate gets side tracked and goes personal.

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, JohnK said:

 

I think it’s very sad that someone with a view that is different from the majority feels driven out.
Perhaps some people think that’s good as they won’t be challenged anymore.
BTW, it’s not just Bob who feels that way, it’s just that some of us aren’t brave enough to say it in the current climate here.
I think soon it’s likely that people with a minority opinion will leave here. I hope that’s what the majority want.

 

John as someone who has been in the minority on a lot of subjects both here and on other forum's , I myself posted that I was leaving but it had nothing to do with being in a minority , the people who have commented here on this thread are both knowledgeable and passionate about the broads .

Trust me this forum is as friendly as they get I can think of a lot worse place's , the mod team here do a brilliant job and that's from someone who has been under post moderation ie every post I make goes through the mods , that's fine with me I accept I did wrong and I'm paying the price .

Trust me as a someone who lives afloat I know full well what its like to be in the minority , I see things vastly differently to most boaters in some cases but there's nothing wrong with that , when I posted the thread of leaving which I'm going to return to shortly I did not feel driven out it was just I felt it was too difficult to get my message across , I still see the pack eminent where a group stick together but its mostly in emos nothing else n that's hardly a worry , I don't think this place has changed for the worse nor do I think that there is any bad feeling , for instance half the folk that have  pressed like against a post I made on this thread may well disagree on another that's just how it is .

Me I'm going no where , n i sure don't see why anyone should either no matter which side of the fence they are .

[vanessan]

4 hours ago, vanessan said:

 JM - when writing to the Authority, would you have any objection to reference being made to your communication or would you rather each individual compiles their own in full? I ask because you have covered all the salient points so well and I think more people might contact the BA if they are able to refer to something that covers everything. Just a thought. 

 

Can I please ask this again? Jenny Morgan (Peter), I do think that more people will take this issue up with the BA if they can refer to the points raised in your communication. 

I hope those of you with strong ‘pro swim’ feelings will take the opportunity to put your views before the BA too. 

[JennyMorgan]

10 minutes ago, JohnK said:

 

Normally I would agree with you 100%.
I’ve said exactly the same on other forums many times.
But this time it isn’t just one person overreacting.
I’m only going to say this once more and I’m going to be blunt.
Open debate isn’t encouraged here (it used to be but it isn’t right now), if people disagree with the majority view they receive personal attacks.
The end result of this is going to be a complete lack of debate here soon.
Now, I suspect I’m going to get a lot of posts telling me how wrong I am (probably by mods too). Of course I’m wrong, I hold a minority view. I’m probably an idiot.

 

John, your style of disagreement is a credit to yourself and impossible to take exception to.  

In this instance we are talking safety, just how important is that? Indeed what is there to argue about?

I certainly can't win every debate, nor would wish to, but I certainly wouldn't go off in a huff if I couldn't. Anyway, debate is about inspiring thought, not argument.

[Wussername]

10 minutes ago, JohnK said:

 

Normally I would agree with you 100%.
I’ve said exactly the same on other forums many times.
But this time it isn’t just one person overreacting.
I’m only going to say this once more and I’m going to be blunt.
Open debate isn’t encouraged here (it used to be but it isn’t right now), if people disagree with the majority view they receive personal attacks.
The end result of this is going to be a complete lack of debate here soon.
Now, I suspect I’m going to get a lot of posts telling me how wrong I am (probably by mods too). Of course I’m wrong, I hold a minority view. I’m probably an idiot.

 

John. I look at other forums. Other Norfolk Broads forums. Sadly stagnant waters.

Here there is a vibrance, a sence of purpose a sence of individual perception of current and past events. All pursued with passion. Personal attacks, where? It would not be tolerated. Please give an example. I honestly cannot think of any individual on this forum I would not moor against. Please, please, do not undermine, without justification the standing and position which this forum holds within our Broadland community.

Andrew

[JennyMorgan]

7 minutes ago, vanessan said:

Can I please ask this again? Jenny Morgan (Peter), I do think that more people will take this issue up with the BA if they can refer to the points raised in your communication. 

I hope those of you with strong ‘pro swim’ feelings will take the opportunity to put your views before the BA too. 

Sorry, I missed that first time around. I have absolutely no objection to folk raising the same points as I have. However I believe that a letter or e-mail will carry more weight if it appears to be an individual communication. My advice is that people should write their own letters, even if they rehash and raise the same points I have. 

[Vaughan]

13 minutes ago, vanessan said:

Can I please ask this again? Jenny Morgan (Peter), I do think that more people will take this issue up with the BA if they can refer to the points raised in your communication. 

I hope those of you with strong ‘pro swim’ feelings will take the opportunity to put your views before the BA too. 

I do not feel that I should write or e-mail myself, as I am not a UK resident, nor UK tax payer, nor toll payer. 

I have sent a PM to Peter to say that he is welcome to transmit my proposal about running the event on the upper Yare, to either the BA or the organisers and anyone else on the forum is welcome to do so as well.

If they think it's a good idea, of course!   

[smellyloo]

Previously I have seen accusations of bullying and wondered where.

However this time I have been on the minority side supporting the swimming event and I have seen how some posts can make you feel that you shouldn't be expressing such a foolhardy view. Almost a feeling of ridicule.

Now I should make it plain that there are a few well argued, eloquent posts expressing their concern, the bullying style posts tend to be posted by followers of these.

I don't for one moment think these individuals mean to be bullies but the wording is clumsy and can be interpreted as such.

I actually don't care what people say to me and the bullying comments make me even more compelled to have my say but I couldn't let the concerns raised by others be dismissed is such an off hand way.

Maybe we should all stop and think ...... are we sure that we show the correct respect to those who express opposing views

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, smellyloo said:

Previously I have seen accusations of bullying and wondered where.

However this time I have been on the minority side supporting the swimming event and I have seen how some posts can make you feel that you shouldn't be expressing such a foolhardy view. Almost a feeling of ridicule.

Now I should make it plain that there are a few well argued, eloquent posts expressing their concern, the bullying style posts tend to be posted by followers of these.

I don't for one moment think these individuals mean to be bullies but the wording is clumsy and can be interpreted as such.

I actually don't care what people say to me and the bullying comments make me even more compelled to have my say but I couldn't let the concerns raised by others be dismissed is such an off hand way.

Maybe we should all stop and think ...... are we sure that we show the correct respect to those who express opposing views

Hang on , as all member's know bullying is against TOS so my first question is have you reported the said posts and trust me they do get delt with .