Are You Loyal?

[RS2021]

10 hours ago, SwanR said:

So a slight aside, but I have looked from time to time at the canals but not had the confidence to want to book anything. Is the Lancaster canal enough to do a few days holiday? Lock free cruising is what I would be looking for. 

The Lancaster would certainly offer lock free cruising, another alternative would be the Ashby canal. If you didn't mind a small number of locks, then you could add the Northern Oxford onto the Ashby (4 locks), the LLangollen above Grindley Brook (2 locks) or the Mon & Brec (6 locks). Of those, my pick would be the Mon & Brec - and its mostly in a National Park!

[Paul]

17 hours ago, oldgregg said:

Canal boats have a much shorter life than Broads cruisers

Really? Don't tell my friends who live on board a converted 1937 Woolwich class NB. In fact a canal forum I subscribe to there are several members with pre WWII boats. 

Properly blacked and with the correct anodes steel narrowboats will just about go forever. 

[oldgregg]

1 hour ago, Paul said:

Really? Don't tell my friends who live on board a converted 1937 Woolwich class NB. In fact a canal forum I subscribe to there are several members with pre WWII boats. 

Properly blacked and with the correct anodes steel narrowboats will just about go forever. 

Yes, just as there are old Broads cruisers, there are old narrowboats.

You know what I meant, though, and I was talking about hire boats which in general don't last so long and need more than a coat of paint to keep them afloat. I'd have a 1975 Aquafibre centre cockpit, but few people would want a 1975 canal hireboat.

Some systems (such as the Llangollen) damage the underside of the boats considerably as there's very little depth and a rocky bottom so overplating is eventually required.

In general they go to the scrap merchant in the sky as it's not worth the hassle.

[floydraser]

18 hours ago, JennyMorgan said:

But is it? Compared with other waters where a toll is charged it is certainly cheaper than some until you take the toll and then divide it by the navigable miles, and consider too that our toll doesn't pay for numerous bridges, aqueducts, tunnels and locks, thankfully. On top of that I have never paid a toll on a number of East Coast Rivers. Consider too the costs of boats on the Broads when compared with other waterways, again and again I hear or read that boats are cheaper elsewhere.  

I think cost comparisons are a whole new can of worms: If you consider people who like the canals and don't care for the Broads or visa versa, there is no comparison for them, but they are contributing to the statistics anyway. Then there are people who never move their boats, so are happy with the little bit of water they are sitting in, which destroys the mileage argument. We could go on and on.....

[Vaughan]

3 hours ago, RS2021 said:

It is these boats which Richardsons are able to offer at the very low prices they do. It is also these boats which are reaching the end of their hire fleet days at 40 odd years. Richardsons have also until recently been building new. These boats, unsurprisingly command much higher prices. However, in the last 11 good years they have only built 48 new boats. If you plan on keeping boats 40 years, this does not sustain a fleet of 300+ boats. The options to buy second hand are decreasing, so I can see even fewer hire boats on the Broads in the next decade or so and it will be the older and hence cheaper ones which are lost and the costs will then, sadly, look similar to the canals.

These are very wise words.

They need considering carefully.

[oldgregg]

It is indeed Black Prince I was thinking of, but ABC do the same thing.

I don't know what the average fleet age is (and yes they definitely do have older stuff), but this was a smaller 4+2 berth and the guy we got chatting to at the yard mentioned that our boat and others in the fleet were 4 years old and were leaving as they'd been sold. We looked online as obviously we were curious, and several similar boats were for sale at circa £42K.

But yes, I've looked at the list of boats for sale at Richardson's each year and it's typically around ten boats leaving with only three being added to the fleet each year. With the new build programme having recently ceased, I do wonder what happens next.

The model used to be to do major refurbs of the older boats and that's not really happened during the newbuild programme, so perhaps they will shift back towards that? Look at boats like Barbados, Escapade, Capri and Viscount. Older boats but all had a total refit around ten years ago and feel much newer inside.

Few other yards have the resources (or space and staff) to do such things. I remember being in the Ponderosa in the winter of 2008/9 and in those days all of the Acle fleet were in there, along with several boats having a total 'windows out' refit.

[Paul]

1 hour ago, oldgregg said:

I'd have a 1975 Aquafibre centre cockpit, but few people would want a 1975 canal hireboat.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. My experience is that osmosis strikes faster than rust, as long as the boat has been maintained properly and rust corrosion can be fixed.  I know a number of people who own pre 198o narrow boats. 

[RS2021]

19 minutes ago, oldgregg said:

I don't know what the average fleet age is (and yes they definitely do have older stuff), but this was a smaller 4+2 berth and the guy we got chatting to at the yard mentioned that our boat and others in the fleet were 4 years old and were leaving as they'd been sold.

I suspect its a simple commercial decision. If you have a customer for a particular boat and they are prepared to pay you enough cash that when added to what you have earnt from hiring it for 4 years (or what ever period) its greater than what you can build a new one for, then you build new. There is one company - Silsden Boats - that I remember a few years ago started to build some wide beam hire boats (on the Leeds - Liverpool). The second hand demand was such that for the first few years, they replaced them every year. I think now they have saturated the second hand market, so keep them longer. 

Black Prince have a class of boats with a large open plan saloon with arm chairs and freestanding dining table and chairs. I believe this is very popular with private purchasers, so may well get replaced more frequently than, say the larger boats.

[floydraser]

37 minutes ago, Paul said:

My experience is that osmosis strikes faster than rust,

That's very interesting. My experience is that old boys tell you osmosis is not a problem and even a bloke who does anti fouling etc and had the chance to quote for it says it's not a problem. I get the impression that the main purpose of osmosis is to negotiate a price down following a survey, after which the new owner says it's not a problem!

[oldgregg]

It can be a problem, but a lot of the boats with issues have shockingly bad layup anyway.

There are plenty of 70's boats about that are doing just fine.

[NotDeadYet]

On 05/10/2020 at 14:09, oldgregg said:

It's certainly that. I can remember paying £1200 for a short break in September on the canals a couple of years ago, and paying around £400 for pretty much the same dates this year on the Broads.

The canal boat was much newer (although nothing particularly posh), and the Broads boat was an AF38 out of Ricko's classic fleet - but that's still an enormous cost difference.

Not wishing to hijack the thread, but what is an AF38?

[JennyMorgan]

Yards that sell on their old boats will, sooner or later, hit the buffers so to speak. The buffers being the availability of moorings. Fifty years ago I worked with a boatbuilder in Chichester Harbour. A very solvent business, whilst it was able to provide moorings. The same happened on Oulton, many years later. In regard to moorings people's demands and expectations are such that the availability of moorings is further restricted. Add to that the constant demands on visitor moorings and the problem becomes even more pronounced. A case of supply & demand. Already I see the advice to prospective owners as being to firstly find a mooring and secondly to go out and find a boat!  

[grendel]

aquafibre 38

[oldgregg]

37 minutes ago, NotDeadYet said:

Not wishing to hijack the thread, but what is an AF38?

One of these bad boys https://www.richardsonsboatingholidays.co.uk/boats/major-gem/

Built from the early seventies to early eighties...

[Wussername]

8 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

Yards that sell on their old boats will, sooner or later, hit the buffers so to speak. The buffers being the availability of moorings. Fifty years ago I worked with a boatbuilder in Chichester Harbour. A very solvent business, whilst it was able to provide moorings. The same happened on Oulton, many years later. In regard to moorings people's demands and expectations are such that the availability of moorings is further restricted. Add to that the constant demands on visitor moorings and the problem becomes even more pronounced. A case of supply & demand. Already I see the advice to prospective owners as being to firstly find a mooring and secondly to go out and find a boat!  

I wish that I had bought a bit of marsh years ago and turned it into a mooring for several boats. Sounds a lucrative business. Once established few overheads. Good cash flow. Need, an important consideration but as yet never in doubt. Or, have I over simplified the matter.

[Vaughan]

Now that the owners of the Whitlingham Gravel Pits have taken back the management, maybe they can make a simple channel connection to the river right alongside, install floating pontoon moorings and make good use of what may not now be practical as a tourist attraction, post COVID?

But Then, the BA planning department have already spent 10 years harassing people away from off-river pontoon moorings in Jenners Basin, only 200 yards away, so I suppose this idea would need a major U-turn in planning policy?

I admit my comment is tongue in cheek, but paid moorings for private boats are going to have to be very seriously considered in future and the BA must address this.

[JennyMorgan]

28 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

so I suppose this idea would need a major U-turn in planning policy?

Which in turn would doubtless demand a change in personal agenda at the top.

[Vaughan]

7 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

Which in turn would doubtless demand a change in personal agenda at the top.

In this case, I am aiming direct at the planning dept!

[Gracie]

1 hour ago, oldgregg said:

One of these bad boys https://www.richardsonsboatingholidays.co.uk/boats/major-gem/

Built from the early seventies to early eighties...

I've Hired Major 1 and 2, a whole lot of boat for the price. Love them x

[JennyMorgan]

9 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

In this case, I am aiming direct at the planning dept!

I don't doubt it but there are some that would suggest that there is an unhealthy level of control from above.  

[oldgregg]

17 hours ago, Gracie said:

I've Hired Major 1 and 2, a whole lot of boat for the price. Love them x

Most definitely.

I've never hired number 1, I hear she's a bit more original inside? I've had Major 2 at least three times, and yeah I think for the money you just can't go wrong. 

My wife is a bit fussy about what she likes and when we were on Major 2 last month she did comment that the heads could have been a bit bigger and maybe a few things could have been better (tiny TV, only 12V electrics etc).

Thinking that here was my chance to book something a bit swankier next time I showed her some of the boats we could have and how much they cost (Fair Prince, Swan Renown etc).

When I pointed out they were two to three times the price and that we could just have the cheaper boat and eat out every night for less than half the cost she fairly quickly changed her mind and I reckon we'll be on a Major Gem again next time...