Norfolk Broads Petrol And Diesel Boats To Be Phased Out.

[Vaughan]

7 hours ago, NeilB said:

Of course, dayboats are an easy win for electric power being back at base every night for charging and no domestic demands.

Absolutely!  And a "pod" motor would be a sensible installation.

Dayboats are a whole different ball game, to a six berth cabin cruiser of more than 10 Tonnes.  Nothing new about electric dayboats either - The Phoenix Fleet at Potter have been building and hiring them for almost 50 years.  It is perhaps significant that NBD said in the EDP back in the spring, that they have had a couple of electric day boats for 10 years or more.  So why only two?  The idea hardly "took off", did it?

But then of course, there are Brownie points to be gained politically these days, from "green incentives" . . . . .

[grendel]

bearing in mind this applies just to the BA's own fleet, How long will it be before you are comfortably moored up, plugged into shore power to run a heater or boil the kettle, and an all electric BA launch, or other pulls up and demands you move or unplug so they can recharge their batteries, as i cant see them waiting their turn to get on the post. or you get to a mooring and find it occupied by a dredger that has pulled in for the night to recharge for the next day, I can forsee a lot of unhappiness occurring if this becomes the normal situation.

[TheQ]

16 hours ago, NeilB said:

Broads Tours have just announced they are building 8 x electric dayboats for next season, further details to come.

Unusual for a dayboat to have a weed hatch so I'm wondering if they are going for a concealed electric outboard or pod system, hard to tell from these photos.

Of course, dayboats are an easy win for electric power being back at base every night for charging and no domestic demands.

 

or maybe they've just taken account of the ever increasing weed problems on the broads

[Vaughan]

Yet another article in the EDP yesterday,  which announces that the BA has engaged a firm called Small World Consulting, who have found that nearly 800,000 tonnes of "CO2 equivalent" emissions are produced each year due to industry, residents and visitors. They don't say whether this is just in our area but in any case, such a wild and unsubstantiated statistic means bugger-all to me.  And I wonder how much of our money these consultants have cost?

Dr Packman goes on to say that The authority, which has cut its own carbon footprint by 21% since 2019 has already outlined how it intends to encourage boaters to switch from petrol and diesel vessels to electric craft so the more polluting boats can be phased out. (his bold type, not mine).

Interesting that the article includes a nice aerial view of the moorings at Acle Bridge.  How many boats moor there overnight, every night, in the summer season?  50 at least, or maybe more?  So how is he going to provide enough charging points and enough power, for all those boats to charge propulsion batteries overnight?

The BA have not "outlined any intentions!  They are just relying on businesses and private owners to come up with some kind of solution, while they use this sort of publicity to seek £8m from the government's "Pioneer Places" scheme - whatever that is.

Meanwhile, One of the findings of the report was that transport to and from the Broads is the largest single source of CO2 in the tourism economy.  Leaving aside how the hell they have managed to work that out, it seems that we will be OK to carry on cruising the rivers in our gas guzzlers, so long as we travel to the Broads by bus.

Personally I think this sort of article is irresponsible as it bears no relation to what we all know by now, to be the true facts of the matter.

[Meantime]

38 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

Yet another article in the EDP yesterday,  which announces that the BA has engaged a firm called Small World Consulting, who have found that nearly 800,000 tonnes of "CO2 equivalent" emissions are produced each year due to industry, residents and visitors. They don't say whether this is just in our area but in any case, such a wild and unsubstantiated statistic means bugger-all to me.  And I wonder how much of our money these consultants have cost?

Dr Packman goes on to say that The authority, which has cut its own carbon footprint by 21% since 2019 has already outlined how it intends to encourage boaters to switch from petrol and diesel vessels to electric craft so the more polluting boats can be phased out. (his bold type, not mine).

Interesting that the article includes a nice aerial view of the moorings at Acle Bridge.  How many boats moor there overnight, every night, in the summer season?  50 at least, or maybe more?  So how is he going to provide enough charging points and enough power, for all those boats to charge propulsion batteries overnight?

The BA have not "outlined any intentions!  They are just relying on businesses and private owners to come up with some kind of solution, while they use this sort of publicity to seek £8m from the government's "Pioneer Places" scheme - whatever that is.

Meanwhile, One of the findings of the report was that transport to and from the Broads is the largest single source of CO2 in the tourism economy.  Leaving aside how the hell they have managed to work that out, it seems that we will be OK to carry on cruising the rivers in our gas guzzlers, so long as we travel to the Broads by bus.

Personally I think this sort of article is irresponsible as it bears no relation to what we all know by now, to be the true facts of the matter.

The easiest way to reduce the carbon footprint of the boating industry would be to introduce emission tests as part of the BSS, and then they could introduce a low emission zone above Wroxham and Potter Heigham bridges with a congestion charge zone from Wroxham to Acle. 

[MargeandParge]

17 minutes ago, Meantime said:

The easiest way to reduce the carbon footprint of the boating industry would be to introduce emission tests as part of the BSS, and then they could introduce a low emission zone above Wroxham and Potter Heigham bridges with a congestion charge zone from Wroxham to Acle. 

That would kill the broads for me so everyone else could enjoy that without Marge and Parge or their financial contributions to Easr Anglia.

It's almost like we should just send our financial contributions and stay at home so that we don't disturb anybody. 

Regards Marge and Parge 

[MauriceMynah]

MT, you are a very naughty man. 

[rightsaidfred]

4 hours ago, Meantime said:

The easiest way to reduce the carbon footprint of the boating industry would be to introduce emission tests as part of the BSS, and then they could introduce a low emission zone above Wroxham and Potter Heigham bridges with a congestion charge zone from Wroxham to Acle. 

That might be funny if millions of us were not already suffering this blight, if you think JP is bad he is a pu**y cat compared to the egotist we have as a mayor.

Fred

[floydraser]

I can see that all large organisations and businesses will be asked what they are doing to limit their impact on climate change and "nothing" will not be an acceptable answer. They will all tick this particular box in a variety of ways, to our amusment and cost no doubt.

Small World Consulting is Mike Berners-Lee's set up. I wonder if he's trying to change the World as much as his famous brother? Looking at the website, there are photos of his team of "consultants". I have trousers older than most of them.

So people travelling to and from the Broads produce the most CO2 do we? Guilty as charged. I therefore hope that one of the above consultants live with their parents in Norfolk and work from home; Small World Consulting are based in Lancaster. I normally come over in the Corsa but if I use the Volvo I'll feel guilty if it helps.

I hope the next financial report shows how much SWC are getting paid.

I think any "consultants" should have to explain how these figures are produced, not only because we have the right to know (especially if it results in us having to pay more in some way to "offset" the effect of something) but also for any future legal disputes.

I hope SWC produce figures to show how much CO2 would be produced by the manufacture and installation of new power units compared to the amount produced by the vehicle during the rest of it's life if unaltered. 

We should all be aware of what causes climate change and take it onboard when making decisions about what we make, buy and use. But I'm afraid "encourage" probably means some kind of financial penalty is on it's way.

[grendel]

if you look at the figures 1 litre of petrol creates 0.6kg of carbon, but as a gas co2 is heavier so 2.3kg of co2 is produced per litre of fuel, this is why the figures are so high.

i recently did the calculations for fuel carbon dioxide for my company, and they were just looking at the fuel used by company vehicles, I did suggest that carbon produced by staff commuting to the office be included in the figures so we can have data to promote the installation of electric vehicle charging points.

I am also using the carbon footprint as one argument for not driving to the office every day (saving over 350kg co2 per week)

 

[MargeandParge]

Sorry but it's all beginning to get everyone down I think

We burn at a maximum 150 litres of derv a year in our boat and drive two hours further than to get to an airport 

So if it would be better for all concerned with their clip boards we would choose to go abroad instead of coming to Norfolk as the airline we use recon to be carbon neutral relatively soon

None of the batteries in the electric propulsion industry can carry a sustainably sourced label.  Nor can the electric supply industry it is necessary to have all but surely were it does the most good is in densely populated areas.

By me and ole Marge joining the jet set and becoming international players ( I might have glammed things up a bit) and going abroad more often it would probably damage the Broads more than our 150 litres of Derv burnt in a relatively unpopulated area. 

Regards Marge and Parge 

 

[Meantime]

3 hours ago, grendel said:

I am also using the carbon footprint as one argument for not driving to the office every day (saving over 350kg co2 per week)

However the office will be heated regardless of whether you are working from home or not. How many other people working from home would have the heating on all day when normally it would go of during the day? So many factors to consider when trying to balance the books on carbon.

[Meantime]

10 hours ago, MauriceMynah said:

MT, you are a very naughty man. 

Who me Sir! 

[floydraser]

Does "carbon neutral" mean you pay extra and the money goes into a fund where a subcontractor distributes the money into climate saving projects? Probably. 

 

[grendel]

43 minutes ago, floydraser said:

Does "carbon neutral" mean you pay extra and the money goes into a fund where a subcontractor distributes the money into climate saving projects? Probably. 

 

I believe that is called carbon offsetting

[Meantime]

8 minutes ago, grendel said:

I believe that is called carbon offsetting

Otherwise known as SEP. Someone Else's Problem. 

[floydraser]

The cynic in me thinks there may be £millions to be made by carbon offsetting.

5 hours ago, grendel said:

if you look at the figures 1 litre of petrol creates 0.6kg of carbon, but as a gas co2 is heavier so 2.3kg of co2 is produced per litre of fuel, this is why the figures are so high.

Serious question: is that figure constant or is it proportionate to fuel consumption? A 1 litre car uses less fuel when driven carefully on the motorway, but considerably more when driven hard in town. Not all the fuel is burnt efficiently.

[grendel]

38 minutes ago, floydraser said:

The cynic in me thinks there may be £millions to be made by carbon offsetting.

Serious question: is that figure constant or is it proportionate to fuel consumption? A 1 litre car uses less fuel when driven carefully on the motorway, but considerably more when driven hard in town. Not all the fuel is burnt efficiently.

that is the recognised figure for burning 1 litre of fuel (petrol) diesel is a bit higher, propane is a bit lower. so fuel economy doesnt come into it.

[Vaughan]

On 18/12/2022 at 18:22, Vaughan said:

Interesting that the article includes a nice aerial view of the moorings at Acle Bridge.  How many boats moor there overnight, every night, in the summer season?  50 at least, or maybe more?  So how is he going to provide enough charging points and enough power, for all those boats to charge propulsion batteries overnight?

I can't help having a little chuckle "up my sleeve" at the news that hundreds of electric car drivers over the holiday weekend, had to queue for 3 hours or more at service stations and supermarkets, as there weren't enough charging points and about half of them weren't even working.  Apparently there are 420,000 electric vehicles on the road but only 30,290 public charging points, of which only 5494 are "rapid" chargers.

It also turns out that if they say your car will do 150 miles on a charge, it may only do about 60 in this winter weather when you have the heater on as well as the headlights and wipers.

In other words, the whole thing is going off at half cock.  I suggest that if the system is already collapsing at peak times on the roads, it certainly isn't going to work on the Broads!

[floydraser]

There must be some very good salespersons selling electric cars; I reckon we could soon be hearing anecdotes of how people bought next year's model at last year's price "and they gave me more for mine than I paid for it!". Just like I used to hear all the time from anyone who bought a new caravan.

Someone I know well is just trading in a petrol Peugeot with about 26k on the clock for a new electric version after they went to a main dealer for work. "While you're waiting have a test drive in this..." is how it started. I've said my bit but they have rose tinted spectacles...

[Vaughan]

I have been thinking a bit more about this (as one does) and wondering whether we are actually making PROGRESS.

I can remember when every village around the county had a garage and filling station.  Even most country pubs had petrol pumps on the front of the car park. This was because you couldn't expect the average car to go very far on a tank, so there were lots of filling stations.  Even in the 60s, you couldn't expect more than about 200 miles out of a Mk1 Cortina.

Just off the top of my head, I can remember at least 5 filling stations between Thorpe and the Foundry Bridge in Norwich.  How many are there now?  As cars got more modern they went further on a tank, so filling stations became fewer and further, as they gradually went out of business.  The further you can go, the less often you need to fill up.

My car has a little computer which tells me (according to my style of driving) that I can go for more than 1200 KM on a full tank. That means that from where I live in the south of France, I can almost get to Norfolk on one tank.  I could certainly get as far as London.

So now where have we got to?  If you are lucky, your brand new EV, costing up to 40K for what amounts to an electric shopping trolley, will only get you about 100 miles, or only 60 in rough weather, before you have to fill it up.  But where are all the filling stations?  They are hundred of miles apart, even if your downloaded APP will persuade them to work when you get there.

I am sorry but as I see it, the sheer practicality of motoring on English roads is going back to about 60 years ago.  At this rate, we haven't made any real PROGRESS since the days of the Austin Seven.

 

[marshman]

Whats also interesting is that they have discovered that a lot of the "emissions" actually come from car tyres, as the rubber, as it wears away, turns into microscopic bits that you then breathe in, which in turn, don't do your lungs a lot of good.

Unsurprisingly its worst in town,, although is that a coincidence that that's where the pollution is at its worst?? Still I suppose if we went back to stone wheels, they would just give off dust and then that would kill you too!

Why can they just not let us die of old age, and call it that?

[NeilB]

3 hours ago, Vaughan said:

I can't help having a little chuckle "up my sleeve" at the news that hundreds of electric car drivers over the holiday weekend, had to queue for 3 hours or more at service stations and supermarkets, as there weren't enough charging points and about half of them weren't even working.  Apparently there are 420,000 electric vehicles on the road but only 30,290 public charging points, of which only 5494 are "rapid" chargers.

It also turns out that if they say your car will do 150 miles on a charge, it may only do about 60 in this winter weather when you have the heater on as well as the headlights and wipers.

In other words, the whole thing is going off at half cock.  I suggest that if the system is already collapsing at peak times on the roads, it certainly isn't going to work on the Broads!

This is why my next car, arriving March, will be a hybrid.  Most of my colleagues have gone full electric to save on BIK tax and some are regretting it now!  My hybrid has an electric only range of over 50 miles so my BIK is substantially reduced over my current diesel so I see it as having the best of both worlds!  Plus I can plug it into the shore power over night and charge it in 5 hours on a 13A plug!

I'll have this for 4 years so will see how the charging network develops for the next car.

[Mouldy]

15 minutes ago, NeilB said:

 . . . . . .I'll have this for 4 years so will see how the charging network develops for the next car.

The cynic in me says that there will be a serious lack of funding for publicly accessible recharging points.  Our local Tesco has installed two, which will clearly not be sufficient long term and there are four in the car park shared between Aldi and a nearby pub in Dereham.  With a government so keen to rid our roads of ICE cars over the next few years, there appears to be little in the way of funding available to support their vision, but plenty for a railway that will be of little use to the vast majority of the population.

Political, yes, but difficult to leave politics out of this subject.

[BrundallNavy]

3 hours ago, Mouldy said:

The cynic in me says that there will be a serious lack of funding for publicly accessible recharging points.  Our local Tesco has installed two, which will clearly not be sufficient long term and there are four in the car park shared between Aldi and a nearby pub in Dereham.  With a government so keen to rid our roads of ICE cars over the next few years, there appears to be little in the way of funding available to support their vision, but plenty for a railway that will be of little use to the vast majority of the population.

Political, yes, but difficult to leave politics out of this subject.

Our local Sainsburys have just removed the free electric charge point as people were leaving their car plugged in overnight and collecting it again in the morning, some people will do anything to save a few bob.