Richard III

[GeoffandWendy]

It was interesting to note that Potter Heigham Bridge was built in 1385 exactly 100 years before the death of Richard III in 1485 at the Battle of Bosworth.

Wendy lived in Leicester before we met so we both took an interest in watching some of the the dig in the car park, when the remains of Richard III were being excavated. It was proven through many tests and  dna from a living relative, that the bones were those of Richard III.

 

Yesterday, the remains were finally taken from Leicester University via Bosworth, where he died, to Leicester Cathedral, watched by millions of people from around the world on television on this historic occasion, something that has never been seen before or will ever be seen again. We were in Leicester to witness this historic occasion and all along the procession, people gathered to watch.

Richard III has always been portrayed as an evil hunchbacked king, who murdered the princes in the tower, but this has never actually been proved. Yes he had a twisted spine, but this was due to scoliosis, but he wasn't actually a hunchback as such. Because of his defeat in 1485, the Tudors made a mockery of him, especially when Shakespeare was writing during the reign of Elizabeth I.

But I personally think that he was not the villain he was made out to be. He was a caring religious person who introduced the bail system of our judicious system, and was well liked by the people of England. He was the righteous heir to the throne, so had no real reason to murder the princes in the tower, since they had been proven illegitimate, and was not a threat to Richard becoming king, after his brother died in 1483.

 

 

 

[GeoffandWendy]

Here are a few photos taken in Leicester yesterday during the procession of Richard III.

 

  

[Hylander]

I would like to know who is paying for all of this.   Today he would have been classed as a nasty piece of work and in fact Murdered the Princes to get his own way.   No sorry him and his kind were not nice at all.

[Poppy]

I agree Marshy.

 

It all strikes me as a little bit like digging up Jimmy Saville and giving him a State funeral! 

[smellyloo]

Today he would have been classed as a nasty piece of work and in fact Murdered the Princes to get his own way.   No sorry him and his kind were not nice at all.

 

Poippy "It all strikes me as a little bit like digging up Jimmy Saville and giving him a State funeral!"

I didn't actually know the chap so it's difficult for me to join in the critism!

 

I do know he died during an augument about roses though, but it all happened several years ago now, Strange they were allowed to bury him in a car park. Does anybody know what happened to his horse?

[Timbo]

Archaeologists hat on here....having read the documented  research evidence...there is no conclusive proof of  identity. All that can be said with any accuracy is that the skeletal remains are those of a male with kyphosis of the spinal column. The individual shares several genetic markers in common with an indirect descendant of Richard...but then so do I, so do most of the members of this forum, the majority of the United Kingdom, Europe, America, the Indian Subcontinent, Australia....

 

Of course I blame Time Team...'proof positive' is not a phrase that appears in any self respecting archaeologists vocabulary, neither for that matter should 'high status' (use of this particular phrase in my vicinity results in a size 12 boot applied to the buttocks). The reason for my hair loss is the number of reports in the news concerning 'high status' finds. 'A skeleton was found with a 'high status' object among the grave goods, it must be royalty or a warrior'. Err...no! And don't get me started on idiots who suddenly shout 'temple'.

 

The 'boat' found at Wayford Bridge when digging the new road is a good example of this misinformation. Read the archeological report carefully and precisely and we are not talking about a boat. We are talking about a wooden object that left a boat shaped imprint when it was lifted. The remaining timbers did not appear to be from a boat structure. But if you read many modern accounts 'a Roman boat was found at Wayford Bridge'.

 

The Time and Tide Museum at Yarmouth has a whole display on 'The Great Estuary' theory of the Roman landscape of the Broads based on a doctoral thesis written in the 1970's. A large number of organisations continually trot out this theory...'it was all under water you know'. Its all cobblers of course. Want to know approximately what the Broads looked like in the Roman period...well other than the odd river diversion and the peat diggings, very similar to what it looks like now. But this theory is subject to change. You see there is no definitive proof in archaeology because what we know keeps changing, the more we discover and the more we experiment.

 

Now Newton tells us that time behaves like an arrow...it travels in straight lines, so travelling back in time to find out what happened is an impossibility.. Einstein tells us that although time is like a river, speeding up and slowing down as it passes around large bodies, there is no such thing as time travel. Kurt Goedal used Einstein's own theories to prove time travel was possible, postulating that in a rotating universe travel in the direction of rotation would result in time travel. Roy Kerr adds a rotating black hole into Einstein's equations once again confirming the possibility of time travel...so Potter Heigham is 'proof positive' that archaeologists can indeed travel back in time to confirm historical fact. This only occurs in Potter by the way, so hang on while I explain. If you make your way down the straight road, sway to avoid the large bodies of the big boned buggers descending from the charabanc to enter the swirling black hole that is Lathem's you will come across the 14th century bridge over the river of time that is cheek by jowle with the 1920's, 30's 40's, 50's, 60's 70's 80's, 90's and naughties. Wander round the back of Herbert Woods and once again you are back in the 1950's and any minute someone will jump out and shout 'Hi De Hi'.

 

Next time you read or watch an archaeologist mention something is proven...please note it is always a junior archaeologist or an American. The person in charge of the dig will be off camera and would never fall into a trap like that.

[grendel]

I didnt know Tony Robinson was American...

[clive]

Give us Yorkies our King Back I say.

[kadensa]

I would like to know who is paying for all of this.   Today he would have been classed as a nasty piece of work and in fact Murdered the Princes to get his own way.   No sorry him and his kind were not nice at all.

I make it a rule never to comment on things I don't understand.  Pity others don't feel the same.

[GeoffandWendy]

Today he would have been classed as a nasty piece of work and in fact Murdered the Princes to get his own way.   No sorry him and his kind were not nice at all.

 

Poippy "It all strikes me as a little bit like digging up Jimmy Saville and giving him a State funeral!"

I didn't actually know the chap so it's difficult for me to join in the critism!    

 

I do know he died during an augument aboute roses though, bit all happened several years ago now. Strange they were allowed to bury him in a car park.  

 

Do not slate him as being a murderer of the two young princes, when there is no actual evidence to prove it. and to compare him to Jimmy Saville is an insult. Torture and other gruesome acts were implemented during Medieval times by all reigning monarchs, so none of them can be classed as good, by today's standards.

 

The car park were he was originally buried was the former site of a Franciscan Priory. This was dissolved during the dissolution of the Monasteries by Henry VIII.

 

The cost of the dig was met by contributions world wide from members of the Richard III Society.  

[Timbo]

£2.3 Million just for the interral. 

[Hylander]

Probably us the Tax Payer as usual then who is stumping up the cash.         My Mum still had to sell her house to pay for her care while we waste money like this.   Just a personal opinion.   

[smellyloo]

I think the people that dug him up should bear the cost of reburial. I'd do it for considerably less than 2 mill.

[GeoffandWendy]

I think no more comment on this subject will be in order. It is obvious to many, that it was all a waste of time and money, but everyone is entitled to their views. 

[grendel]

I had a friend in Canada who commented after watching that the British really do know how to do these things properly, so maybe it came out of the tourism budget.

Swings and roundabouts, it may be a waste of money, but it was something other countries saw as properly British (mainly because they don't have the depth of history that we appear to).

Grendel

[Paul]

I think I was with you for a while there Timbo, until you jumped from archaeology to time travel and it all got a bit blurred, I rather lost the plot at that point. Were you smoking something as you typed?

 

The identification process was quite sound, sufficient matches in the mitochondrial DNA of a direct descendant Richards father, Richard Duke of York found in a skeleton precisely where Richard III was expected to be, and where there is no liklihood of any other member of the family being buried at that time offer sufficient archaeological evidence to name the skeleton. Of course it will only ever be a 99.99% prognosis but that is good enough, at least for 99.99% of the population!

 

The cost of his reinterment is being met by personal donations and trust so don't panic that your hard earned taxes are being misused, if you are looking to start that argument do it elswhere. The undervalued sell off of the Royal Mail to government cronies which cost every single income tax payer over £30 each would a good place. You might even look at the legal process which sprung up over the place of his burial which because of the sharp practice of the so called "Plantagenet Alliance" in bringing a nonsencical judical review cost the UK Taxpayer over £200,000. Who paid for the £4m visitor centre in Leicester I'm not sure, but it's doing good business and is expected to bring 150m a year to the city for the next few years so sounds like good value to me.

 

Living locally to Market Bosworth, and the Battlefield we blagged our way into the nearby village off Shenton on Sunday and enjoyed some glorious weather, walking down to the Station Buffet for a cuppa and bacon roll before grabbing a place by the roadside to wathc the cortege pass. I was disappointed that neither the coffin or his funeral car carried his standard. I'm sure that would be down to etiquette or royal protocol but it didn't seem right. Whatever he might have done or not done, and we only have proof of those things which survived through history, the many reforms he began which shaped our modern world, especially it's judicial system. He probably did come to the throne through a plot of intrigue and betrayal. The grounds on which the illigitimacy of his nephews were based were tenuous to say the least however the throne has been passed around in much more questionable circumstances many times. Whether he was a good king or a bad king he WAS King of England and his coffin should, IMHO have carried his royal standard, or if that was not permitted his battle standard, plenty of which were on display around the route of the procession on Sunday.

[Timbo]

Amber leaf Paul, just Amber Leaf...

 

Now there's a suspicious lump in my back garden...Jimmy Hoffa anyone?

[Polly]

I watched the tv coverage and the dig coverage in the car park. I thought the Sunday coverage was fun and loved the Knights in armour escort. I am so shallow! I don't think taxpayers will have shelled out on the events either.

Coming from near Grafton Regis, I'm prejudiced and pro princes in the tower . however as a lit bod, I'd readily subscribe to the view that Shakespeare did a thoroughly political job on his reputation, nothing to really rely on there.

I think we are not able to call this, we don't have medieval mind sets so the ruthless power struggles of that period wouldn't sit well with our values. Just have a look though at a few hot spots in world news.....

I wonder if I will get modded......

[GeoffandWendy]

I was hoping that since my last post that this topic would have been buried by now (excuse the pun) but since Paul has posted, he has made it a bit more clear, regarding the certainty that the skeleton was that of Richard III and clarified that no tax payers money was used to finance the dig and his reinternment.

 

As far as the visitor centre is concerned, this was part funded by Leicester City Council and the Heritage Lottery Fund as well as private donations. Like Paul has already stated, it will bring a lot of tourism to the area from all over the world. Half of Britain's tourist income is due to our history. Stratford - on - Avon rakes in over 120 million a year alone. Add London, York, Bath, Canterbury, and even Norwich, to mention just a few places that attracts tourists and you are looking at a multi billion pound attraction.

 

Now that Richard,s remains will be laid to rest in Leicester Cathedral, it will attract more visitors to the city and the near by Battlefield Visitor Centre at Bosworth. The new Visitor Centre in Leicester, within five years will more than recoup the initial costs to the council and will also boost local trade.  

[MauriceMynah]

Win win then, unless you are Richard III

[unclemike]

if this topic is current next week coowee will no doubt comment, he is off grid this week but is a member of and librarian for the richard 3 society,no doubt with more information

[Polly]

That is why I said I might get modded! Lol

[Guest]

.......The Time and Tide Museum at Yarmouth has a whole display on 'The Great Estuary' theory of the Roman landscape of the Broads based on a doctoral thesis written in the 1970's. A large number of organisations continually trot out this theory...'it was all under water you know'. Its all cobblers of course. Want to know approximately what the Broads looked like in the Roman period...well other than the odd river diversion and the peat diggings, very similar to what it looks like now.........

 

There's a lot of firm geological evidence to back up the "great estuary" theory Timbo.

 

...good job the BA weren't in charge in those days. 

 

...think of all the complaints about the loss of all that lovely cruising ground....

[Paul]

 

Now there's a suspicious lump in my back garden...Jimmy Hoffa anyone?

 

I think there would be more money in Lord Lucan Timbo.

[kadensa]

Probably us the Tax Payer as usual then who is stumping up the cash.         My Mum still had to sell her house to pay for her care while we waste money like this.   Just a personal opinion.   

Give it a rest - you aren't paying for it.  Neither is your mum