Bad Manners.....

[Wussername]

7 hours ago, Viking23 said:

It is not only the noise from engines, but the particulates emitted by most engines. The older design of engines, in general, emitting higher particulates. They also emit Carbon Monoxide, on several occassions we have been chocked out by diesel smoke fumes, as our rear canopy is not gas tight. It might be possible, in theory, that we may have died in our sleep by Carbon Monoxide poisoning by another vessel oblivious to the situation. 

The boat moving on in the morning, not knowing that they had killed someone. 

We need "Mythbusters" on the case looking at this. I know for example that if my outboard is run, for a long time, charging my batteries, say next to a high jetty, say with a boat close to my stern, with little wind, that I could expect that the cabin gets filled with Carbon Monoxide.

Luckily, and by MY choice, I have fitted a CO detector. 

There are many unfortunate people that might not be aware of such a hazard. 

Regards, 

Richard

There is a more serious aspect to this matter. The possibility of carbon monoxide poisoning is real enough. There is a more sinister danger. COPD. Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease.

Prevalent amongst those of us who used to smoke in the fifties onwards. Even if you gave up twenty years ago you are still susceptible to this disease. Inhaling diesel fumes will exacerbate the condition. Many people suffer from the complaint, thousands in fact. Have you ever felt a bit chesty of a mornng having spent an afternoon breathing diesel fumes.

One has a right to fresh air. Running engine's in a confined area at any time day or night should not be allowed.

That includes stern on mooring at the likes of Ranworth and Beccles, whereve. Wild moor, mud weight, but please not next to me, because I have COPD.

[MauriceMynah]

I'm very sorry but I can no longer hold my tongue (Ok then, typing finger) on this one. Running engines to charge batteries between the hours of 08:00 and 20:00 has been, is, and has to remain a perfectly acceptable activity.

I am well aware that hundreds of holidaymakers die each week on the norfolk broads alone just because someone within  2000 yards of them decides to boil a kettle.

Oh come off it gentlemen, get a grip.on reality! So a person's Co alarm goes off when they run their outboard with the canopy up. All that proves is that the alarm is working and that it has something of a 'hair trigger' It does not mean that their death is imminent.

It has already been stated that one should have (and not block up) sufficient ventalation. That is all that is needed. Nothing more, nothing less. There are thousands of boats on the broads, the vast majority have diesel engines. Live with it! Many will; have batteries that requiure a bit of charging. Live with that too. and some albeit a minority need to run their engines to cook things. Sorry fellas but you are going to have to live with that one as well, cos I don't see them being removed from the fleets any time soon.

I used to smoke 60 Marlboro a day, and I expect I have done irrepairable damage to myself by doing so, but I bet I've damaged more innocent folk through passive smoking than I have through charging my batteries.

I'm sorry for the rant Wusszername but your comment

10 hours ago, Wussername said:

One has a right to fresh air. Running engine's in a confined area at any time day or night should not be allowed.

and worse...

 

10 hours ago, Wussername said:

That includes stern on mooring at the likes of Ranworth and Beccles, whereve. Wild moor, mud weight, but please not next to me, because I have COPD.

was a whinge too far.for me.

[Vaughan]

MM, I think your post is spot on, apart from your reply to Wussername, as we should remember that there are many with allergies, asthma or other medical conditions who can be seriously affected by an impure atmosphere.

Alan, I also agree with your reply to me last night, but does this actually point out another "angle" to the problem?

I have been brought up in the belief that a boat, especially a hire boat, should be able to provide its own power for the equipment on board and can therefore moor up where it likes. I am surprised by your description of a modern Broads hire boat as I didn't know they were so sophisticated. In the business, we have long laboured over the calculations that ensure that a boat has enough batteries to supply its equipment and enough charging capacity for those batteries, within a day's cruising. Ask Andrew Peachment!

There must be over 3000 hire boats on the French canals these days and almost none of them have electric cooking, for the reason above. Very few have microwaves and if so, they have a separate bank of batteries, through an inverter. (12v microwaves did not prove successful). Even so, they all have shore power panels and can plug in overnight if they wish. Incidentally Peachments made all of ours and I recommend them if you want to fit one - in safety.

So my question is, have we gone beyond the point where all the extra luxuries provided for our customers are actually detrimental to their full enjoyment of a boating holiday?

There used to be 3000 hire boats on the Broads but there are less than 800 now, and yet this moored running problem is relatively new. As MM says, we can't put the clock back, which is why I say there must now be a good supply of 220v shore power points.

[MauriceMynah]

12 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

So my question is, have we gone beyond the point where all the extra luxuries provided for our customers are actually detrimental to their full enjoyment of a boating holiday?

Be it boating, glamping or just staying in an hotel, the modern customer considers these luxuries not as luxuries but as essentials. We are all guilty of it to a certain extent, just look at the ever growing number of comments regarding Horning and the phone signal.

It has always been like this! many of us will remember (with differing levels of pleasure) collecting ice for the ice box, commenting on the black stains on the sides of hulls when central heating on boats was new, and of course looking down noses at boats displaying TV arials. Go back further and you would have heard disparaging comments aimed at boats equipped with one of those infernal combustion engines!

So what do we have to look forwards to? Well I for one have no idea, butwhatever it is, I shall have to tolerate it or go elsewhere for my leasure time. Hire fleets will never " go beyond the point where all the extra luxuries provided for their customers will; be detrimental to their full enjoyment."

[Poppy]

33 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

There used to be 3000 hire boats on the Broads but there are less than 800 now, and yet this moored running problem is relatively new. As MM says, we can't put the clock back, which is why I say there must now be a good supply of 220v shore power points.

Fair point (perhaps), but who is to pay for this ?  I do not use shore power, never have and never will. *I would fight very hard against any such charge were it to be levied across the board on toll payers. 

How about a loading on those ( hire and private) who would use it?

[SwanR]

In case my post yesterday sparked this new debate on an old subject, as a frequent hirer of boats over the last few years can I perhaps clarify what we are told by the boatyards - this is part of the handover and is also in the Skipper's Manual.

• Separate battery for the engine means that you will always be able to start that up.
• To keep the battery for domestic supplies charged up you need to run the engine for on average three hours per day.
• On top of this you are advised to run the engine when using the microwave (that's even though you have a 240v inverter).

So when we hire in June with maximum daylight hours we use very little electricity. And as such we aim to cruise for a minimum of three hours and then might moor up even though it's a bit early if we have a favourite place that we want to be. Out of season we enjoy longer cruising days on less crowded rivers and that ensures the batteries are fully charged up as we are likely to be using the lights and the heating in the evening.

Some yards let you take a power cable out - we have used these from Faircraft Loynes and Ferry Marina. On the other hand Richardson's with their very large fleet, don't let anyone take a power cable. We couldn't even see that they had the boats on charge in the yard when we picked ours up last week. So whilst more electric posts would be welcome they will not solve the problem of needing to run the engine on occasion.

If we are all sensible and keep this to a minimum then we will get along fine.  And perhaps when anyone talks about visiting places like Norwich and Great Yarmouth, we should avoid recommending that they leave the boat where it is and have a day out by train or bus - that's exactly the time when they will come back to the boat and feel the need to run the engine rather than take a chance that there's enough charge left from the day before.

[vanessan]

I have to agree with MM to a large extent, we do seem to be less tolerant these days. It has always been 'the norm' to run engines to charge batteries and I certainly can't recall it ever bothering me late into the evening. Having said that, from forum posts it does seem to happen more nowadays and after 8pm I do think is unacceptable. When we used to hire, we invariably did sufficient hours each day to charge batteries. Now we have our own boat we take it all much easier and often don't go very far. That's when the electric posts are so welcome, meaning we can trickle charge the batteries and use kettle, microwave and toaster and save the gas for other times. I know a lot of folk would never consider plugging in but, for some of us, the ability to do that is great.

Live and let live and each to his own etc etc, it's when people are thoughtless that spoils it for others.

[MauriceMynah]

Back in the day, cooking and heating water was done by gas. now, one way or another it's done by the engine. Result? engines have to be run for longer than they used to be.

Perhaps we should all have been a little more careful what we wished for.

[Vaughan]

21 hours ago, Poppy said:

*I would fight very hard against any such charge were it to be levied across the board on toll payers. 

In my experience shore power is only paid for by those who use it. For instance if you park your camper van in a camp site you are charged for an overnight, with a small supplement if you want electricity.

If a pub, or a public mooring, is charging for an overnight stay, then they can also charge extra for shore power.

Companies who supply equipment to marinas also make shore power points where you can "put a sixpence in the meter".

[Poppy]

1 hour ago, Vaughan said:

In my experience shore power is only paid for by those who use it. For instance if you park your camper van in a camp site you are charged for an overnight, with a small supplement if you want electricity.

If a pub, or a public mooring, is charging for an overnight stay, then they can also charge extra for shore power.

Companies who supply equipment to marinas also make shore power points where you can "put a sixpence in the meter".

Vaughan,

My concern is about the installation costs, which can be considerable. I fully understand the charge to use the facility, which is right and proper. When In my caravan I have no qualms about that when I wish to use such facilities. I am simply worried that the Blessed Authority should not see this as another opportunity to 'up ' the tolls across the board !

 

[Vaughan]

2 minutes ago, Poppy said:

I am simply worried that the Blessed Authority should not see this as another opportunity to 'up ' the tolls across the board !

I would hope that the BA, just like a marina, would regard this as an investment which would be offset by the revenue from the facility. In other words, as a "profit centre".

But then, there are a lot of other things in life that I "hope" for!

[JawsOrca]

I think it's a bit cruel to brand as bad manners.. the broads is a holiday destination, people are holiday and thus relaxing..

When I'm up there I drive too close to be nosy (the same as you look through windows without kinda noticing it when you wondering around somewhere new).. people do to us, I don't mind just as long as they don't hit us.. and we've never had anyone hit us on purpose.

The majority on the broads users are also taught by the yards (myself included - Thankfully we was initially taught by an old experienced chap at silverline and I still employ most of what he said) so perhaps the yards  don't quite get the right message over. 

Certainly with regards to engine running..My personal view is that if an engine needs to be run to do something then it's not been designed and engineered correctly.. the engine should be there just to drive the boat nothing more.. if the modern lightships need the engine to charge things then they either should have more investment in them (yes sorry the cost should applied to the hirer), i.e they should have separate well silenced gensets which are used for domestic applications outside of the engine.. The BA (or others) shouldn't be running round putting electric pylons in places.. not only it's hardly green they ruin the natural look.. we are hardly experts but Orca has mod cons but doesn't need plugging in.. we both managed two showers and washing up without engines running..  sadly I think it's a cop out by the yards and it's the builders responsibly to design accordingly.. it will become more of an issue as fleets modernise.  But I do agree running an engine whilst sitting on a mooring shouldn't happen.

Hire yards are telling hirers to do this (Sorry team richos.. I think this is a great video with some brilliant tips and excellent for newbies but at 13mins on below you are telling people to do this  ). http://www.richardsonsboatingholidays.co.uk/richardsons-tv/richardsons-trial-run/

Rant over, peace out.. vote remain..  

[grendel]

aas someone who works in the electricity supply industry, the costs to run a cable in a remote location to get a supply to that point are huge, we have to pay the local DNO (electric supplier) to make a connection, cables cost, and the further you need to run them the bigger they need to be, even running a cable a few hundred metres can cost thousands - for example a three phase service cable (35mm) costs us nearly £5 per metre to install, with the cross section getting bigger, the cost rises - this is the cost without the trench, which would have to be dug as well. 

Most moorings are remote from the electricity network to start with, this means the costs are increased.

I agree with Jaws, the answer is effectively silenced generators, a work colleague I used to know had one converted over to propane (lpg) so it ran off the campers gas supply, and that was whisper quiet.

[Poppy]

24 minutes ago, JawsOrca said:

 sadly I think it's a cop out by the yards and it's the builders responsibly to design accordingly.. it will become more of an issue as fleets modernise.  But I do agree running an engine whilst sitting on a mooring shouldn't happen.

Hire yards are telling hirers to do this (Sorry team richos.. I think this is a great video with some brilliant tips and excellent for newbies but at 13mins on below you are telling people to do this  ). http://www.richardsonsboatingholidays.co.uk/richardsons-tv/richardsons-trial-run/

Rant over, peace out.. vote remain..  

Guaranteed to sell more overpriced 'Red', as well 

[LondonRascal]

If I can interject here – not very many hire boats have ‘all electric’ systems for cooking – but I will come back to that in a moment.

I see matters as pretty simple and there being three types of boats – I will call these:

• Classic
• Legacy
• Premium

A classic boat is a simple boat regardless of age that has very few power demands and no inverter to provide 240v power.  It will have a gas hob and oven, a bilge pump, a water pump, strip lighting, a television, a fridge and a heater.  It is likely such a boat will have three batteries, start for engine on separate circuit, and two for the domestic services. 

If the batteries are in good condition, there is no reason that after a day’s average cruising there will b plenty of capacity to run the boats electrical needs – that said of course it is best to be frugal and not leave cabin lights on when one is not in the cabin. 

A legacy boat actually can include new builds – but where they have in additional to the classic boat’s systems items such as electric macerator toilets, a second heater and perhaps two or more televisions with a satellite system connected to them along with a microwave oven. Naturally they will have an inverter to provide 240v power. However they are fundamentally based upon the same ethos as a classic boat – just a battery or two extra and a few more items added to the electrical system. 

Legacy boats electrical systems are more complex though and simply flushing the toilet will put a load on the batteries so these boats will have a larger battery bank – perhaps made up of an engine starting battery and 4 domestic batteries – two for the 12v side and 2 for the inverter to run the 240v side. 

A premium boat is a boat whereby the electrical system is vastly different to that of the above two classes.  It will have all the system that a legacy boat has but then have more electrical items such as an electric hob, electric kettle, full size domestic fridge, toaster, microwave – usually combination with electric oven.

The boats battery banks will be even larger than that of a legacy boat but equally wired differently to provide not 12volts  but 24volts to the boat – and the inverter will run at 24v not 12 and will include a high amperage battery charger for when the boat is connected to shore power.

By having a larger number of volts you reduce the amount of amps required to run something – if an item took 6 amps at 12v it would take 3amps (roughly) at 24v.  It is therefore more efficient but requires more batteries as you pair two 12v batteries to make one single 24v one.  Premium boats can have up to 18 batteries wired like this. 

What one has to remember is it is not just about batteries and volts – that just represents capacity so the larger the battery bank, the larger the alternators need to be – in premium boats I have seen two, 200amp Alternators which can conversely mean a larger physical engine for the size of the boat you might expect to accommodate the added loads put on them when charging batteries. 

Having said the above, you might think that the only boats that may be the worst culprits of running engines at moorings would be the premium boats – however the reality is a real mix of types will run their engines and sometimes for no good reason – it is not that they have ‘run out of power’ but perhaps fear that they will if they do not run the engine.

All of the above said, this is one of the most ‘boat saturated’ waterways and is today far less busy than it would once have been.  It is therefore to be expected that people are on holiday and frankly will enjoy what they have paid for.  If they find the has LED power meter is into the ‘run engine’ section when they power up the satellite system and put the heating on, and they then start the engine I don’t see that as they having bad manners.

You can’t really blame anyone as there are so many influences – if a hire yard built a boat and charged more than £2,500 a week to hire it in peak season and nobody did it would not be feasible, turns out people do want to hire these boats and do enjoy the new features they have and certainly don’t want to know how they all work just the fact that an electric kettle boils faster than a hob kettle and is like home. 

For those who do not agree – it will be getting worse – I don’t think we are many seasons away from the first Broads boat to have air conditioning fitted because these can be reverse cycle and provide heat in winter and cool in summer and when producing heat actually are more efficient per watt produced as per watt consumed – the downside would be a generator needed to provide power – the up side more fuel burnt which the hire yard sell so for business it is good, for the consumer it is a new thing to enjoy the only looser is the environment which, seems always to be considered but not often enough.

[Vaughan]

2 hours ago, LondonRascal said:

I see matters as pretty simple and there being three types of boats – I will call these:

• Classic
• Legacy
• Premium

Robin, your post is excellent and thank you for taking the time to write in detail on what is a complex subject. I will discuss a few things with you in a minute, but can I firstly say :

I genuinely go back to the days when there were no electrics on hire boats, except the magneto, on the Morris Navigator petrol engine, started with a crank handle. Lighting was by gimballed paraffin lamps, cooking by Primus stove and if you wanted heating you could hire a free standing paraffin heater to stand on the wooden floor of the saloon! So I can say that I have seen all the new technology since then and looking back, it has all happened in a very short time.

I totally agree with your three classes of boat and when the Wilds Caribbean and the "Solar" 37 were built, they had one battery of about 110 Amp/hours, to run the whole boat. All the rest, of course, including heating, was by gas. You only needed to run the boat for an hour a day, to charge the batteries, and 2 hours to ensure you had plenty of hot water.

I would point out that 24 volts is used when you want to increase CCA (cold cranking amps) which is why trucks run on 24 volts, to give them the instant battery power to start a big 6 cylinder diesel. 24 volts is not an advantage on "domestic" circuits (and we have tried it) for one good reason: If you connect two  12 volt batteries in parallel, you double the capacity in amp/hours. If you connect them in series, you double the voltage, but not the amp/hours.

I have said before that we need to calculate the power needed for the appliances on board; the batteries needed to supply that, and the charge needed to supply the batteries. Here is an example :

The average Electrolux fridge is rated at 40 watts, so at 12 volts it is using 3.3 amps. The makers say the fridge (on maximum) will run for 70% of the time it is switched on, so this means that over a 24 hour period it will take 55 amp/hours out of the battery. A battery can only be used to 50% of its capacity in amp/hours (unless you want to wreck it) and so one fridge equals one battery. Simples!

You can go through the whole boat and look at the wattage of each appliance and the number of hours, minutes or seconds that you expect to use it, and this will give you a total figure in amp/hours. The number of batteries you need will be twice that figure.

When I say "seconds", a Perkins starter motor takes 800 amps, but only for a couple of seconds, so it only takes 0.4 amp/hours out of the battery. Assuming it starts!

You mention air conditioning - There is a 12 volt unit which will cool one cabin, which takes 52 amps of power on 12 volts. this means seriously thick wiring, apart from all the rest of it. Air conditioning is all about BTU (British thermal units) and the one I mention provides 7000 btu. There is also a 220v unit, water cooled, which will provide 11000btu. Peachments calculated that to efficiently air condition a boat such as the Crown Classique would require 60,000btu minimum. Take my advice, don't go there!

Sorry, but I come back to what I said earlier - if you want all this "stuff" on board then you have to back it up with shore power.

 

[mjt]

4 hours ago, Vaughan said:

24 volts is not an advantage on "domestic" circuits (and we have tried it) for one good reason: If you connect two  12 volt batteries in parallel, you double the capacity in amp/hours. If you connect them in series, you double the voltage, but not the amp/hours.

I must point out that if connected in series you do still effectively double the capacity because, as Robin pointed out, with double the voltage you're halving the current consumption.

[LondonRascal]

Vaughan, oh I love a good debate and reading your post has made me itch to reply lol..I am sorry but it is evening, I have got some 'tunes' one the go and a pint of Guinness therefore this is going to be a long reply, sorry about that people...

I agree with a great deal you say, and I should very much like to sit in a pub over a few pints hearing your stories of boating past but when I come to boating I've got to be honest, I want to leave the past in the..urm past.

It's nothing to do with boating, but good old physics that means the more voltage you have the less current will result - this is very helpful in a marine environment because very high current things like Bow Thrusters or a Windlass  can be bought in a 24 volt version, this will then not require the same gauge wiring because it will not require the same current to operate at.

My choice of boat to work on this is wide - ranging from an ex-hire Ideal 45 to a 1990 Fairline 50 - I just love the lines and 'Miami Vice' vibe it has going on.

Straight out goes anything 12v - water and bilge pumps, gauges, lights, heating you name it all to be replaced with 24v versions - even the toilet would be electric but running at 24v and this would mean that my amperage draw for these items would effectively be cut in half and so long as the wires were in good nick, nothing would need changing here.

Next to efficiently run the items in question, and charge my new 24v battery bank, the Alternators would be swapped for 24v versions - water cooled at that - for the hotter and harder an Alternator runs the less efficient they become and by water cooling them and they stay more stable and at peak loads without issue.

Despite all the above I would need 240v domestic power of course - this would be to run a host of things including a domestic Fridge.  I’ll say for the sake of this example we are sticking with 12v (because I have done the math on this previously based on 12v). What we need to do is find out the wattage the Fridge consumes and at 240v and in my example this would have a running wattage of 108w but the compressor motor needs a jolt of about three times its running wattage to start up, usually provided by a hefty Capacitor, this surge is needed for only a fraction of a second but the inverter needs the beans to provide this so just to start the Fridge you would want to factor in say 400w which would reduce once running.

I also need to know how much DC battery capacity I would need to have to run the Fridge.  I would personally have dedicated batteries for this task so in the worse case you lose some food not a bunch of other more vital equipment if the batteries are drained - I'd also have a dedicated inverter that can be smaller and produce only the required wattage needed to run the Fridge.

I convert the Fridge's AC running Watts to DC Amps. The starting wattage doesn’t last long enough for me to worry about, but I know our AC wattage is 108w because it uses .45Amps at 240v. Divide this by 12 (our DC volts) and multiple the answer by 1.1.  So 108/12x1.1= 9.9 - you would therefore need as good as makes no difference 10Amps DC to run the Fridge.  You need to multiply by 1.1 to take into account the loss of an Inverter (or inefficacy) it causes thus actually would require slightly more DC Amps than a ‘pure calculation’ of Watts/Volts = Amps. 

Now the above is only valid if the Fridge ran for an hour continuously, and in such time drew 10 Amps – so with this in mind  this would equate to 10Ah (Amp Hours). Now this if it were to run for 24 hours that would use rather a lot of amps - to break it down to a nice round figure I will say that the Fridge might run for 20 hours continuously (highly unlikely) which would equate to 456Ah! 

Fridges do not run continuously for 20 hours though (if your does you have an issues lol) – some say when calculating power with regard to Fridges to work at a 50% run time per 24 hour period. I’ll go along with this for now but I am not so sure this is true I recon it is less. So, our 456Ah would reduce down to a more ‘manageable’ 228Ah being taken from the battery bank. 

This is still not making me happy; because the above is like saying that a Fridge will run (on and off) but effectively, none the less still be running for 10 hours in every 24 hours.  I just don’t believe a compact A+  rated appliance would run for 10 hours every 24 hours. 

So let’s dig deeper into the specifications of the Fridge and see if this helps matters. I find its Kilowatt Hour use per 24 hours is 0.4 (Kwh/24H): 0.4) or in ‘easy speak’ that is 400 Watts.  This is reference to a 240v supply, but it gives a good idea that in a 24 hour period it would consume 400w if plugged in at home. 

With this information we can now find out just how many Amps the Fridge is actually likely to sap out of the batteries in a 24 hour period and if my math is right, that means 36Amps. (400/12x1.1=36) 

On the face of matters that appears you could just use a single 110ah Battery and with careful thermostat control run the Freezer off this. Personally, I would opt for two to split the load over them and take into account the 88 – 90% efficiency an Inverter can provide and that you cannot comfortable discharge more than 50% out of a lead acid battery. Your usable capacity with just a single battery is 55Ah (110ah with two). 

So, it goes to show however, if you had a 24v system, with an Inverter that took 24v in and gave 240v out your amperage need would not be 36Amps each day for the Freezer to run but come down to something like 18Amps which is why you can see I much prefer 24volts at DC and thus keeps those pesky Amps down.

Now what else - air conditioning - have you seen the cost of those marine AC units? Crazy and they need either a stupid amount of amps to run at DC voltages or (and more often) use 240v though the use of a Generator and their BTU capacities are not that big, so in larger boats two or more are needed!

Well right off the bat no way would I using a marine air conditioning unit - a bathing platform type structure would be installed.  Now this may very well require the Transom to be strengthened because I'd be looking to have about 100kg+  hanging off the back of the boat.  This would all be within a GRP enclosure - the rear of which would be louvered as would the left and right sides - it would need to be strong enough to withstand an impact from the boat hitting a quay heading when stern mooring and with the enclosure fitted would blend into the boat with no fixtures viable.

On the left of the structure would be a diesel generator - you know, those enclosed 'silent' types and would be a 1,500 RPM type so would not race and sound would be kept to the minimum. On the right would be the outdoor air conditioning Evaporator which forms part of the 'chiller unit' for the water cooling (or heating) for the boat.   Cooling water in a close loop system is far more efficient than having a Condenser (indoor unit) that gets cold and air is passed through it.  In a chiller system the Condenser chills water in a loop sending very cold water off to where it is needed via insulated pipes.

The Generator and outdoor Evaporator would be separated from each other by a 'fire wall' along with several inches of fire retardant sound insulation. A high volume, low noise fan would draw air from under the platform (the base of which is slated) and help to disperse both the exhaust of the generator and aid heat dissipation from the air conditioning unit's own cooling fan system.

Inside the boat a series of matrix's would take the chilled water to every cabin and through a value and thermostat system would mean each cabin could have its own set temperature control.  In the winter time the system would run in reverse, causing water to be heated and the outdoor unit then becoming cold - and if cold enough outside to physically ice up - so every hour or so the system needs to stop and 'reverse' to defrost the outdoor unit. They actually work more efficiently in heating mode, putting out more kilowatts of heat than they actually consume thought the way the refrigerant works in reverse cycle air-conditioning units.    This is why heat pump based heating units  are being seen as a 'green' alternative to heating homes and indeed I think you can get grants for their installation.

So my generator is outside of the boat yet also 'part of the boat', itself in a sound proofed enclosure which is then within the second insulated GRP enclosure to keep sound levels down and I recon to it would mean 40db at 7 metres.

That is all for now - but other ideas would be using a waterless coolant system for the engines, an 'auto moor' system with thrusters controlled from a remote control about the size of your phone so you can step off the boat at the stern and from the quay bring the bow in for example - then have the boat hold station while you tie the lines.  The system being variable from 0 to 100 percent of thrust with the ability to maintain that at a 100% duty cycle.  A camera based, Infra-Red night navigation system.  Using ultrasound waves to cause an 'envelope' around the hull through transducers mounted along the hull  to effectively create a high frequency shield, which stops the hull from fouling and ever needing to be painted with anti-foul again.      

[riyadhcrew]

Robin,

If I ever have the money to build a boat, I might ask you to be the Project Manager.

[grendel]

my take is that at 24V you halve the current, transmission losses in the wiring is less as the loss due to the resistance in the wiring is reduced with the current carried. (this is why the main overhead grid network runs at 400,000V.

[Vaughan]

Wow!

Like you Robin, I would love to sit and have a pint with you and talk this over, as it is a fascinating but also very important subject, which lies at the root of this present "running at moorings" problem. I met you briefly at the spring meet when you invited me aboard BA, but we didn't have much time to talk then. Let's do it again sometime!

I think it is clear from our posts that we are looking at the same problem but from different angles - you as a private boat owner and me as a boat hirer. I understand that you want to look forward, not back, but my knowledge of the past does give me a perspective. What I have learned is that to properly enjoy a boating holiday, private or hire, the boat must be autonomous - it must be able to cope with its own consumption during a days cruise. A good example is the Richardson's aft cockpit hire boat that Jonzo brought with him to the spring meet. What used to be called a "Sedan" and I know them well. I contend that you can have just as good a holiday (or better) on that boat than any of the new ones. Jonzo and his crew didn't seem to be missing any of the "luxuries"!

As it seems to be the only bit we disagree on, let's get 24 volts out of the way first! The principle that I quoted is what I have always read in text books and was taught to me by the Lowestoft College of Marine Engineering. In practice, there is a large French company called Locaboat, for whom I used to work, who went all 24 volt a few years ago and have regretted it ever since. Why? Because they feel they are not getting enough capacity at that voltage. Not enough amp/hours. When you have a relatively simple 6 berth boat with 9 batteries, plus one for the bow thruster, you begin to think that maybe, this could be more efficient!

Having said that, there is definitely a good use for 24v when you need more "power" for a bow thruster or a large water pump. Also if you have a Kabola diesel fired central heating and hot water system. (which would be excellent if they were more reliable).

You also mention physics, and you know that one of the main principles is that nothing comes for free, otherwise someone would have made a perpetual motion engine. If you want energy you will always pay for it somewhere. A 90 amp Prestolite alternator on full power will take almost 5 horsepower off the engine, so if you find you need 2 alternators and several banks of batteries, you will be taking 10hp off what is only a little old 40hp engine in the first place! So less propulsion power and a greater fuel consumption. There is also the risk when adding an alternator, of putting too much side load on the crankshaft, so you start to think of a 5 or 6 cyl diesel instead of 4, just because you want to charge batteries.

As a general comment, I am not much interested in generators, although we have used them, especially if you want to drive the boat electrically. After all they are still a diesel engine, with fuel consumption, exhaust fumes, an audible cooling water outlet and so you are not gaining much in terms of physics or ecology. That is just my opinion!

Talking of fuel consumption I have done a lot of research into this as with 400 hire boats, it can make a big difference. I once proved that if we could cut our fuel use by one litre per hour on the whole fleet, we would save enough money to build 2 new boats a year. I can tell you that a Webasto heater uses 2.5 litres per hour, as against a Nanni 4190 at 1200 revs which is only 1.5 litres. Conversely, the Nanni 5 cylinder swinging a 22X18 prop at 2500 revs will drink 7.5 litres an hour. If you drop that down to 2000 revs it comes down below 6 litres. Funnily enough, the most economical is still the good old Perky 4108.

However, back to the subject, of running engines on the quay. The hire companies say that a modern boat must be run for 4 or 5 hours a day to charge batteries and this is true. Problem is that most cruises on the north rivers are only a couple of hours or more, so people find they have not fully charged and have to run the engine while moored.

So I repeat - if you want all this "stuff" on the boats, then you have got to back it up with shore power, if you don't like the noise of engines in the evening.

 

[grendel]

Vaughan, I can see you need to come to the summer meet at Oulton broad on 23rd July, where both Robin and myself will be there to sit around and chat (about all things under the sun).

[BroadScot]

29 minutes ago, Jonzo said:

It had an engine, a DVD player and a fridge for the beer, so we were sorted 

Surely the order of the items are wrong way round !

Iain

[LondonRascal]

I think Vaughan is coming from the side of sense and practical knowledge.  This is why I’d make for a terrible business owner – if I had a hire fleet they would be the nicest going, but make a vast loss because of all the goodies on the boats an not being able to make a good profit lol.

[riyadhcrew]

Now is the time to offer the best boats afloat. With all the problems abroad, people are into staying at home in the UK. If you check the bookings on the expensive boats - you will see what I mean.