Sailies-which Way?

[smellyloo]

Bylaws according to Smelly

1) I am the best and most knowledgable skipper .... ever

2) I always have the right of way over everybody.

3) IF I wave to you treat it as a compliment ..... I don't feel it necessary to wave to people I don't know.

4) Please don't touch my boat without permission or ask me to move up to accommodate others. That privelege is reserved solely for me.

5) If you don't agree with my perception of the rules then clearly your WRONG ..... simples

[Poppy]

Just now, smellyloo said:

Bylaws according to Smelly

1) I am the best and most knowledgable skipper .... ever

2) I always have the right of way over everybody.

3) IF I wave to you treat it as a compliment ..... I don't feel it necessary to wave to people I don't know.

4) Please don't touch my boat without permission or ask me to move up to accommodate others. That privelege is reserved solely for me.

5) If you don't agree with my perception of the rules then clearly your WRONG ..... simples

Not just Smelly it would seem

[JennyMorgan]

Smelly is far to nice to be like that, Poppy, but regretfully that certainly rings true for more than a few!

[quo vadis]

33 minutes ago, Poppy said:

I regularly wonder that when sailing......

Wow pops do they do it to their own types too 

[Poppy]

Just now, quo vadis said:

Wow pops do they do it to their own types too 

No.... we mostly 'have a clue'.

[quo vadis]

Just now, Poppy said:

No.... we mostly 'have a clue'.

Just a clue not a plan 

[Poppy]

Just now, quo vadis said:

Just a clue not a plan 

Oh, and a plan, most definitely a plan, and it rarely involves the fastest possible passage to the next pub

[quo vadis]

Oh you've seen my navigating then pops I've been rumbled 

[Paladin]

1 hour ago, Poppy said:

(1) Subject to the requirements of Byelaw 15:
(a) The master of a power-driven vessel underway shall keep
his vessel out of the way of:  
(i) a vessel not under command;  
(ii) a vessel restricted in its ability to manoeuvre;  
(iii) a sailing vessel;  
(iv) a quanted vessel. "

 

Seems clear enough.

Bye law 15 starts with:

"Notwithstanding any provision to the contrary in these Byelaws the master of a vessel overtaking another vessel shall keep his vessel out of the way of the vessel being overtaken..."

So a sailing vessel overtaking a power-driven vessel is the Give-Way vessel until the overtaking manoeuvre has been completed. That is particularly relevant when racing is taking place, as motor craft will usually be going very slowly and it is often the case that they are overtaken, on a tack, by the sailing craft. The sailing helm should NOT pass in front of the motor craft in such a way as to make the latter change course or speed. All competitors in races should know that.

[TheQ]

You can't pass in front of a motorboat while the overtaking manoeuvre is taking place you would have to go through the motorboat. Once the sailing boat has overtaken and can physically pass in front of the overtaken boat, bylaw 15 no longer is in force..

[Guest]

We can argue about this till the end of time , the fact is regardless of a powered vessel be that engine or manual or a sailing vessel , no matter who has right of way , all skippers have an obligation to avoid a collision .

All it takes is common sense and decency , at the end of the day no one is on the broads boating for an argument , but I do think people from all types of craft should show a far bit more respect for other's .

[Vaughan]

2 hours ago, Paladin said:

Neither the ColRegs nor the Navigation Byelaws use the expression "right of way". When two vessels meet, one is the Give-Way Vessel, the other is the Stand-on Vessel.

If we are going to discuss semantics, I am so sorry that I learned my Colregs before 1964, when the wording of the text was changed. The text itself, and its meaning, remains the same and it is evident from BA Navigation byelaws that it is still the same. 

2 hours ago, Paladin said:

In the case of a sailing vessel meeting a motor vessel, sometimes the sailing vessel will be the Stand-On vessel and sometimes it'll be the Give-Way Vessel.

Only if the sailing vessel is overtaking, in which case the helm of that vessel, especially at Thurne Mouth, will have the sense to keep clear! This thread has been talking about what to do when confronted by yachts tacking, if you are in a motor cruiser.

 

2 hours ago, quo vadis said:

Regular users of the waterways, whether hirers or owners, should know the difference.

Talking about rights of way merely perpetuates the confusion.

These two statements are themselves, in confusion. 

Surely, talking about rights of way will remove the confusion, so that regular users of the waterway, will know the difference?

[Vaughan]

I don't know why my 3rd quote has come up as "Quo Vadis" as it wasn't - it was from Paladin. Forgive me, as I don't know how to correct this, on the software.

[Paladin]

40 minutes ago, TheQ said:

You can't pass in front of a motorboat while the overtaking manoeuvre is taking place you would have to go through the motorboat. Once the sailing boat has overtaken and can physically pass in front of the overtaken boat, bylaw 15 no longer is in force..

Perhaps I should have said, the overtaking vessel should not maintain a course, which, if not changed, would result in a collision with the vessel being overtaken unless the vessel being overtaking takes avoiding action.

I think you know the sort of thing I was talking about. It happens often enough at Horning.

7 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

Surely, talking about rights of way will remove the confusion, so that regular users of the waterway, will know the difference?

Right of Way: "the legal right of a pedestrian, vehicle, or ship to proceed with precedence over others in a particular situation or place."

It has already been established that such a 'right' applies ONLY to the extent that, as Ricardo rightly points out, it is the responsibility of each master to avoid a collision, notwithstanding any rules which may give one precedence over another. I prefer to use the terminology provided by the legislation. Others may obviously make up their own.

9 minutes ago, Ricardo said:

We can argue about this till the end of time , the fact is regardless of a powered vessel be that engine or manual or a sailing vessel , no matter who has right of way , all skippers have an obligation to avoid a collision .

 

[TheQ]

Just now, Paladin said:

Perhaps I should have said, the overtaking vessel should not maintain a course, which, if not changed, would result in a collision with the vessel being overtaken unless the vessel being overtaking takes avoiding action.

I think you know the sort of thing I was talking about. It happens often enough at Horning.

 

 

Which is where I mentioned  (maybe on this thread) often a motor boat over reacts when seeing a sailing boat approach, expecting it to turn at 10ft away  when the sailing boat is likely to turn 10 inches away...

[Paladin]

Just now, TheQ said:

Which is where I mentioned  (maybe on this thread) often a motor boat over reacts when seeing a sailing boat approach, expecting it to turn at 10ft away  when the sailing boat is likely to turn 10 inches away...

Hardly over-reaction by someone who may be on their first trip to the Broads.

Bye law 17:

The master of a vessel which is obliged to keep out of the way of another vessel shall, so far as possible,take early and substantial action to keep well clear.

Turning away at a distance of 10" leaves no room for error and can hardly be described as 'early...action.' Last second' is more apposite.

[TheQ]

if you're sailing on the broads 10 inches, is well clear...

 It's too crowded for anything else..

[LondonRascal]

Interesting discussion. I have never had an experience that has 'shaken me' so far as sailing boats go and wht they are up to and where they may be going. 

My rule of thumb is usually they don't just pop up out of nowhere unless you should turn a tight bend on the Ant and find one heading towards you.  So I just look to see what the previous couple of maneuvers have been - which then leads me to know where I need to be and what do to - maintain current speed, increase, or slow.

If I am approaching a sailing boat from their stern I will come up so as they tack to port, for example I am able to pass to their starboard (stern) in good time before they reach the port back and tack back over to my side of the river. In this situation you'd like need to slow at first, wait for them to make a move, then speed up so that they are not hindered by your presence.

if however I am finding a sailing boat approaching me, I again see what the last two moves were - that gives a good indication of what the wind is doing and what they will do next, though sometimes they might do something different and it is only then the yachtsman tend to signal - since they are making a move you may not expect, often it is not  wave but a clear arm out (much like how a cyclist may signal to turn) some do it very rapidly others hold it for a couple of seconds - so it is wise to always be watching. It may not even be the Skipper who gives this signal but another member of the crew.

The aim of the came is understanding and both knowing what the sailor is doing and likewise the motor boat. Of course there will be times when other boats even sailing boats cause you to have to come to a stop - and that is where you need practice at often small, but sharp inputs of forward or astern throttle to counter current and wind - I've even be in a situation of needing to run astern and match the speed of the sailing boating that was coming down the starboard bank, as another was tacking over toward the starboard bank - if I had stayed put their bowsprit would be in my hull!

Here is a good bit of sailing action with lots of them weaving about all at once:

 

 

[TheQ]

A nice of motoring there, strange to see Torty so far back in the fleet (white boat 21) he and Liz normally do better that that!

Not very crowded though.

[Wussername]

All that I would say about this matter is stay away from that big boat with the black sail, a funny flag on the mast and a white blob of paint on the front of it!

[vanessan]

Unfortunately there are competent sailors who clearly feel the need to prove their skills to mobo helms and turn as close to a vessel as they possibly can. I remember being moored at Thurne Mouth (those were the days!) when a couple of guys seemed to decide they would try and scare us by continually tacking up and down and turning as close to our hull as they could. I have faith in the sailing community so was not unduly bothered but the smirks and grins made their intentions somewhat evident. Rather a silly game that could have gone wrong. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, TheQ said:

if you're sailing on the broads 10 inches, is well clear...

 It's too crowded for anything else..

So based on that if an overtaking cruiser passed your boat 10" away the would be classed as well clear of you ? 

[TheQ]

Just now, Wussername said:

All that I would say about this matter is stay away from that big boat with the black sail, a funny flag on the mast and a white blob of paint on the front of it!

Oh I don't know I've many many years ago, capsized right in front of Albion, I had to hold the laser mast / sail down while they sailed over the top avoiding me...

 

Just now, Ricardo said:

So based on that if an overtaking cruiser passed your boat 10" away the would be classed as well clear of you ? 

Providing that is over the fenders then that is often the case...

Though beware the suction of the motorboats hull, something you don't often get when a sailing boat is overtaking a motorboat.

 

[grendel]

reading this as an inexperienced helm, I know that if the distance was anything less than about 6 foot, I would be anticipating a crash and be reacting accordingly, while it may be that the sailors (of the sail boat) consider 10" to be plenty, when you get close to an inexperienced helm, you would have to allow they will be in panic mode and either trying to steer away, or hitting full astern, and thus their motion will be less than predictable - indeed they may slow so much they have no maneuverability - or control of where they were going, so by that fact I would say going that close would be less than responsible from a seasoned sailboat helm.

Add that to the fact a lot of hirers are likely to be novices, and it seems to me to lack sense, no matter who is in the right.

[TheQ]

When a motorboat overtakes a sailing boat, its' bow wave first pushes the sailing boat away, then the other side of the bow wave the sailing boat gets sucked in closer. 

Therefore a big cruiser can shake a small sailing boat all over the place. If the conditions are really only just sailable then a motor cruiser on the other bank, will shake a small boat about. The more the speed and the more the bow wave the worse it can be.

Over the years we do get used to being shaken about and countering the bow wave.

Although we do prefer more space, it is not uncommon to have dayboats (especially) and motor cruisers going past us at 10 inches and occasionally less.

The biggest problem is the hireboaters who have not been acclimatised to the width of their boat and go for a gap that isn't there. Or the Dayboaters hammering their way past to the next pub.. The most common question when I'm on rescue boat duty from the tourists is "how far to the next pub.".