Thoughts About Thrusters

[OldBerkshireBoy]

28 minutes ago, grendel said:

I think the worst use of bow thrusters I ever saw was a boat cruising past st benets (where I was moored), using the thrusters every few seconds to keep the boat going straight, then turning right up the ant, just on the bow and stern thrusters, not a sign of steering input in the prop wash, just a repeated whirring of the thrusters at full chat.

Well this proves good thrusters do work when the boat is under way. 

[grendel]

yes, but not as well as the rudder would have.

[OldBerkshireBoy]

2 minutes ago, grendel said:

yes, but not as well as the rudder would have.

Agreed.

[addicted]

 We aways have the thrusters switched on ready for instant use when negotiating past  groups of flappy things. They have saved us from contact with a bowspit on more than one occasion.

 

Carole

[Wussername]

I will have a thruster when they are fitted on wherry's. But not until.

[Vaughan]

13 minutes ago, addicted said:

They have saved us from contact with a bowspit on more than one occasion.

This comment is in the genuine spirit of offering good advice : the best way to avoid contact with a bowsprit is to always pass round the stern of a sailing boat and not across its bows.

[RS2021]

15 minutes ago, Wussername said:

I will have a thruster when they are fitted on wherry's. But not until.

I thought all wherries had bow thrusters...

[PaulN]

I've been sailing since 1958 in dinghies and had my own yachts from 1976. I had my first bow thruster fitted in 2010 having traded up to a Beneteau 42 and reversing off our 50ft marina finger berth, with only another 50ft clearance to the boats on the other side, made a bow thruster very desirable.

Hiring broads boats, we first had one with a bow thruster, but mooring alongside one day in the rain and wind, my wife jumped off from the stern to moor, not realising the timber heading was covered in goose poo, slipped and had both legs in the water. It was a cold March day with me able to do very little from the helm, by way of assistance. From then on, we hired with bow and stern thrusters (Moon Enterprise), so I could hold her firmly alongside whilst my wife moored safely. When we bought our own boat, we got one that already had both fitted (electric ones).

The trouble I found with the hydraulic ones is that they have little power without revs on the engine, so to manoeuvre slowly I needed to keep pulling the throttle out of gear in order to increase revs without boat speed, to make the thrusters effective, then wipping it back into gear for propulsion.

As we get older with a bit of arthritis in our ankles, I wouldn't be without them. If it makes life easier why not go for it?

 

[DAVIDH]

19 minutes ago, PaulN said:

The trouble I found with the hydraulic ones is that they have little power without revs on the engine, so to manoeuvre slowly I needed to keep pulling the throttle out of gear in order to increase revs without boat speed, to make the thrusters effective, then wipping it back into gear for propulsion.

It's the same on Goosander (also with hydraulic thrusters). I though it was my imagination at first, but you can feel the difference when you increase the throttle. It makes it a little trickier than needs be, but I'd much sooner have them than not. I'm sure having a boat with thrusters, extends the "cruising life" of the older skipper by some distance. 

Looking at my database, every boat which entered service from 2013 onwards (as far as Hoseasons are concerned), has incorporated bow thrusters - except Tranquilla, which was already built when Richardsons bought her. That 47 boat classes. It stands to reason that boats with thrusters will be damaged less by their hirers. 

[floydraser]

5 hours ago, floydraser said:

As for narrowboaters, don't get me started.. it's a fashion accessory!

Having said that... I think I remember a couple of Foxes Afloat videos where they have to reverse their 60ft narrowboat quite a distance, and used the bow thruster to good effect. 

[Wussername]

As Vaughan has explained, bow thrusters are good until they fail, or they are unable to cope. The latter, certainley on the lower reaches of the Yare, can contribute to an anxious and an alarming situation for an inexperienced helm who does not possess the wherewithal to recover from an unforeseen dilemma.

They need to know how to recover from such a situation, many do not.

[CambridgeCabby]

We didn’t have a bow thruster on Cerise Lady , but with twin screws she was extremely manoeuvrable , on Pipedreams we have a single engine but the benefit of not only bow but also stern thrusters , that said , I found Cerise Lady far easier to put anywhere I wished but then I was much more used to her .

[Bytheriver]

4 hours ago, grendel said:

I think the worst use of bow thrusters I ever saw was a boat cruising past st benets (where I was moored), using the thrusters every few seconds to keep the boat going straight, then turning right up the ant, just on the bow and stern thrusters, not a sign of steering input in the prop wash, just a repeated whirring of the thrusters at full chat.

We see it at Reedham many times a day when crews use the thrusters to turn in mid stream when a quick blip on full lock would do the job in half the time and at less annoyance to others manoeuvring at the same time

[Malanka]

My only exposure to the feline buttons was in 2006 when we hired Broads Harmony (1) with the low head room in the front cabin. On handover I was asked to moor stern on to Kingfisher Quay before being allowed out. I dutifully did so and was told “ you needed to use the thrusters” evidently I didn’t I replied. 
Having reversed all the way out ( from the far bend) of the windmill dyke on Horsey in a woody, Silver Jubilee, and a butter dish, fair empress 2 which for many years was one of the longest boats on the system never needed to use anything other than patience. Patience is a wonderful thing, couple that with a good design and some experience and thrusters are not necessary. 
maybe boatyards fit them to reduce damage? Who knows, most times we’ve been hit it’s always accompanied by the banshee wail of the thrusters banging away. More patience less haste and some modicum of skill and respect and who knows they may even stop fitting them. 🧛

A happy new year to all and great floating on whatever you chose to use for floating. 
 

M

[Vaughan]

Very best wishes from me also, for a happy new year!

 

6 hours ago, Malanka said:

and who knows they may even stop fitting them. 🧛

I am afraid there has always been a fatal tendency in Broads boatyards, towards "keeping up with the Jones's".  They make the big mistake of thinking they are in competition with each other when in fact, they are not.  Their competition is other forms of holiday, especially package tours to Mediterranean beaches and holiday cottages.  They will always leap to fitting a new gadget on their boats, as a selling point in the brochure, which just means everyone else has to spend a lot of time and money trying to keep up.

We saw it in the 60s with gas fridges, 240v shaver points, TV and even showers.  Remember all the "symbols" that boats had to have in Blakes catalogue, back then?  It is still going on now and has got out of hand, in my view.

Boating on the Broads is an adventure holiday and learning how to handle the boat is a fundamental part of it.  You never stop learning how to handle a boat - I never have - and that is its fascination.  You only have to read "The art of coarse sailing", or "Coot Club", to see the real pleasures of Broads boating and those pleasures are still there now, with no need of bolt-on electric extras.

 

[MargeandParge]

Hi to All

We don't have a bow thruster but may have one fitted in the future as the older we get the safest option is always the best option. 

Another thing that we think about  is wear on the drive. Any thoughts? Having a mechanical TCM 60 on a shaft with the extra forward and reverse movements needed to correct the boat. I always engage the gear and then apply power but obviously it creates a delay.

We would like to wish all a happy and healthy new year.

Kindest Regards Marge and Parge 

[FlyingFortress]

M+P

My advise to you is get one fitted if the budget allows. 

Before I continue I will state that I am a professional Ship Handler and I have been a boat owner for around 30 years. 

I never felt the need for a BT in any of my previous boats due to the directional instability inherent in the individual boat. Without getting too technical if you need lot of steering input to maintain a steady course then she will be easy to turn and hence easy to manoeuvre. Just like a large Tanker. 

Current boat needs little steering input to maintain steady course but is harder to turn. Directionally stable like a large Container Ship. Within 5 minutes of undertaking the test run before purchase I told Mrs FF that we needed a BT on this one and it was fitted the following year, now 17 years ago. 

None of us are getting any younger and Mrs FF is now totally used to stepping off the boat as we always arrive at our mooring parallel to the quay under full control almost regardless of wind or tide. I say almost as I am not immune to a mistake or 3. It takes a little practice but is easily achievable to slide sideways into a mooring tide or no tide. BT is sometimes used and sometimes not but is always switched on ready. 

As far as mechanical issues. 

The only issue I have had was when I got weed in it (my own stupid fault) and damaged the motor. My unit is a fairly bog standard Side Power electric one that rather controversially runs off my engine start battery. My logic is that The BT will only be used when the engine is running. It switches itself off after a certain time if I forget to stop it after a mooring. 

It improves safety for us and makes stern mooring a piece of cake as BTs work best with sternway despite what has previously been said on here. Anyone doubting me needs to learn about the Pivot point of a vessel and how it changes due to which way the vessel is going  with regard to the water. 

 

[addicted]

19 hours ago, Vaughan said:

This comment is in the genuine spirit of offering good advice : the best way to avoid contact with a bowsprit is to always pass round the stern of a sailing boat and not across its bows.

Yes of course it is and  after 4 decades of boating we are well aware of that, However I'm  referring to  the occasions  we have experienced when passing across the stern the sailors have thought it good sport to do an about turn mid river and head straight for us.

 

Carole

[PaulN]

4 hours ago, FlyingFortress said:

M+P

My advise to you is get one fitted if the budget allows. 

Before I continue I will state that I am a professional Ship Handler and I have been a boat owner for around 30 years. 

I never felt the need for a BT in any of my previous boats due to the directional instability inherent in the individual boat. Without getting too technical if you need lot of steering input to maintain a steady course then she will be easy to turn and hence easy to manoeuvre. Just like a large Tanker. 

Current boat needs little steering input to maintain steady course but is harder to turn. Directionally stable like a large Container Ship. Within 5 minutes of undertaking the test run before purchase I told Mrs FF that we needed a BT on this one and it was fitted the following year, now 17 years ago. 

None of us are getting any younger and Mrs FF is now totally used to stepping off the boat as we always arrive at our mooring parallel to the quay under full control almost regardless of wind or tide. I say almost as I am not immune to a mistake or 3. It takes a little practice but is easily achievable to slide sideways into a mooring tide or no tide. BT is sometimes used and sometimes not but is always switched on ready. 

As far as mechanical issues. 

The only issue I have had was when I got weed in it (my own stupid fault) and damaged the motor. My unit is a fairly bog standard Side Power electric one that rather controversially runs off my engine start battery. My logic is that The BT will only be used when the engine is running. It switches itself off after a certain time if I forget to stop it after a mooring. 

It improves safety for us and makes stern mooring a piece of cake as BTs work best with sternway despite what has previously been said on here. Anyone doubting me needs to learn about the Pivot point of a vessel and how it changes due to which way the vessel is going  with regard to the water. 

 

Totally agree with you FF. I too have a few thousand sea miles under my belt and like to think I can 'feel' a boat when manoeuvring. However as we get older, my wife and I find thrusters a fantastic safety feature when mooring.

We also keep them switched on all the way up the Chet when going to Loddon, by giving them a quick blip every 10 minutes, so that we can quickly move sideways close to the bank when a Kamikazi pilot comes the other way, going too fast and hogging the centre of the river!! 

[Andrewcook]

In all my years of Boating experience Bow Thruster were non-existent as using one last year was a very hand tool to use but I still admire Griff at Horsey Mera with Broad ambition being reversed out with out the Bow Thruster. 

[Malanka]

5 hours ago, Andrewcook said:

In all my years of Boating experience Bow Thruster were non-existent as using one last year was a very hand tool to use but I still admire Griff at Horsey Mera with Broad ambition being reversed out with out the Bow Thruster. 

Andrew, ‘‘twas me not Charlie boy”. We have also reversed across the front of Ranworth dyke, and all the way round and stern on down the side in a single manoeuvre. All the while being watched by just about everyone. After I stepped off the back I overheard an old guy saying, “I helped build that boat as an apprentice” I stopped and talked with him for quite a while after that.

I can do that because after 11 years I know what she can and can’t do. Both my sons can now do the same as well. 
I don’t need a thruster to turn Malanka in her own length, just a big old torquey engine and a big prop. If I needed one I would get one or get a boat with one. 
 

M

[Broads01]

12 hours ago, FlyingFortress said:

It improves safety for us and makes stern mooring a piece of cake as BTs work best with sternway despite what has previously been said on here. Anyone doubting me needs to learn about the Pivot point of a vessel and how it changes due to which way the vessel is going  with regard to the water. 

Are you saying, for stern mooring, bow thrusters are more effective when the boat is moving astern as opposed to being stationary? I've seen this done on YouTube but it contradicts what I believed was best practice.

[FlyingFortress]

1 hour ago, Broads01 said:

Are you saying, for stern mooring, bow thrusters are more effective when the boat is moving astern as opposed to being stationary? I've seen this done on YouTube but it contradicts what I believed was best practice.

Yes Broads01 that is exactly what I am saying. 

When a vessel has sternway the pivot point moves right aft and creates a large lever for the BT to work with making it more effective. 

This is a common technique used by us Pilots for example to depart a berth in an onshore wind. An astern movement of the engine will considerably increase the effectiveness of the BT and/or The forward tug. 

While large ships do have big Bow Thrusters (in the region of 6000 Kw + in some cases) the power to weight (300000t + and no that is not a typo) ratio is much lower than a leisure craft which is why tugs are still used particularly in strong currents. 

Headway on the other hand can totally destroy a BTs effectiveness with speeds as low as 5 kts which again explains why tugs are still used. Its easy maths. BT useless at 5kts, current 4kts, aproach speed 2kts equals forward tug required. Try explaining that to a Captain who has no experience in tidal rivers and has a ship with several thousand Kw of BT. 

[Broads01]

Interesting stuff, thanks. I'll give it a try next time I'm stern mooring.

[FlyingFortress]

18 minutes ago, Broads01 said:

Interesting stuff, thanks. I'll give it a try next time I'm stern mooring.

Please don't think I am trying to say that BTs do not work going forward or stationary on a Leisure boat with massively overpowered BTs and STs when fitted, I am just advising how to get the best out of them in difficult conditions. 

My own BT, underpowered by todays standards, will quite happily blow my bow out into the current when departing head to even the strongest tide at, for example, Reedham. If I then have to turn I will not operate the BT until I am stopped or have sternway. Judicious use of a BT saves a lot of backing and filling with the main engine/s. 

One consideration when at work that translates to The Broads is Traffic density. As we all know it can be quite busy on The Broads and the sooner we turn the sooner we clear the channel for other users. 

Same thing applies at work and we try to minimise the time a 400m ship is blocking the channel which is another reason (apart from our strong currents) that we use more tugs than other ports that handle these monsters. A 6000 Kw BT is roughly equivalent to a 60 tonne bollard pull tug. For Ultra Large Container Ships (ULCS) the tugs must be 80t+ and we have a considerable sized tug fleet over 80t. When swinging one of these I will often have all 4 tugs on 100% and the BT on full.