How Busy Can It Get?

[Bikertov]

Most (if not all) alarms would have a test button, to make sure it is working properly ?

 

[Meantime]

No CO is a good thing, however Kidde who are a popular make of CO alarms have the following to say about CO.

When Will Carbon Monoxide Levels Set Off Your Alarm?

Carbon Monoxide Level   Alarm Response Time

40 PPM 10 hours

50 PPM 8 hours

70 PPM 1 to 4 hours

150 PPM 10 to 50 minutes

400 PPM 4 to 15 minutes

 

Carbon Monoxide Levels and Their Symptoms

If your carbon monoxide alarm sounds, or you suspect you are experiencing symptoms of carbon monoxide poisoning, you should immediately leave your home and call 9-1-1. Here are some of the symptoms you can expect from carbon monoxide exposure.

50 PPM None for healthy adults. According to the Occupational Safety & Health Administration (OSHA), this is the maximum allowable concentration for continuous exposure for healthy adults in any eight-hour period.

200 PPM Slight headache, fatigue, dizziness, and nausea after two to three hours.

400 PPM Frontal headaches with one to two hours. Life threatening after three hours.

800 PPM Dizziness, nausea, and convulsions within 45 minutes. Unconsciousness within two hours. Death within two to three hours.

1,600 PPM Headache, dizziness and nausea within 20 minutes. Death within one hour.

For more information about your specific alarm, refer to your user’s manual.

[MauriceMynah]

1 hour ago, Bikertov said:

Most (if not all) alarms would have a test button, to make sure it is working properly ?

 

The test only checks the alarm, not the digital readout. 

This morning I placed the alarm right next to the heater and the exhaust system for 15 minutes, with the heater running full on. 

CO sensor still read 0.

[dom]

Have you got access to a petrol car? Or a petrol outboard? Holding it in proximity to the exhaust with the engine running should give you a reading. The MAIB report for one of the last carbon monoxide incidents stated levels around 2000 parts per million above the exhaust of a petrol engined cruiser. Modern vehicles with strict emissions will probably be a lot lower.

MAIB also showed more extreme examples of the effects of exposure.

1500 ppm Headache after 15 minutes, collapse after 30 minutes, death after 1 hour
2000 ppm Headache after 10 minutes, collapse after 20 minutes, death after 45 minutes
3000 ppm Maximum "safe" exposure for 5 minutes, danger of collapse in 10 minutes
6000 ppm Headache and dizziness in 1 to 2 minutes, danger of death in 10 to 15 minutes
12800 ppm Immediate effect, unconscious after 2 to 3 breaths, danger of death in 1 to 3 minutes

The bottom one is the thing to be aware of. I've seen people on Youtube with CO alarms going off entering cabins and wandering around without taking steps to ventilate the area first, which is a really bad idea.

Also be aware that CO has a cumulative effect and can build up in the system over weeks or days.

[ZimbiIV]

I in any doubt throw it out and get a good one!

CO does not play or have a sense of humour.

Unless you value your life at less than 30 quid.

paul

[dom]

A couple of other things:

"detectors that comply with the more stringent BS EN 50291-2 standard are best suited for boats"

British standard detectors also have delays after initial low level detection before sounding a warning.

30 ppm 120 minutes
50 ppm 60 minutes
100 ppm 10 minutes
300 ppm Immediate

It might be that your detector only shows the level once triggered?

[Smoggy]

Diesels don't emit much CO, it's more a petrol engine thing or gas cooker if it's not burning right.

[Meantime]

The alternative is to buy a can of Arctic Hayes Sleep Safe Smoke alarm tester, available on Amazon for around £9 for a can which is useful for about 40 tests. You spray it for around 2 to 5 secs in front of the CO detector.

[Meantime]

Apologies you want this one, which is good for about 7 tests per can. 

[dom]

One of their other products is, er, interesting?

https://www.arctic-hayes.com/Catalogue/Carbon-Monoxide-Smoke-Alarms/Carbon-Monoxide-Smoke-Alarms/SLEEPSAFE-HOL-HOME-CO-DETECTOR-SINGLE-PH019HC

I'm not sure callng that Sleepsafe was the wisest of ideas!?

[MauriceMynah]

14 hours ago, ZimbiIV said:

I in any doubt throw it out and get a good one!

CO does not play or have a sense of humour.

Unless you value your life at less than 30 quid.

paul

How will I know if it's a good one?

[Smoggy]

Mine has never shown anything above 0, I think most with a display can show highest level since activating as well as current level but can't remember how. What model is it? Does it have built in battery or replaceable battery? Answers on a £20 note to smoggy c/o pub.

They should all chirp annoyingly if there is any problem or batteries going flat and should have a test button on them, a tin of that test stuff is your best bet if not sure but vent the area afterwards, failing that a cold petrol outboard on choke should soon register if you hold it by the exhaust.

[ZimbiIV]

4 hours ago, MauriceMynah said:

How will I know if it's a good one?

Easy as ABC.

Anything But Chinese.

paul

[Smoggy]

Just now, ZimbiIV said:

Easy as ABC.

Anything But Chinese.

paul

I bet most are made in china, if not the components probably are.

[dom]

7 hours ago, MauriceMynah said:

How will I know if it's a good one?

In case you didn't see my earlier post, "detectors that comply with the more stringent BS EN 50291-2 standard are best suited for boats".

Personally, with things which can kill you, I'm more of a fan of redundancy than premium quality. Two typical off the shelf devices in overlapping areas is better than a single premium quality unit if a battery goes flat or a component fails.

 

 

[MauriceMynah]

Pretty much agree with you there Dom. By the time I'm done I'll have 3 fixed detectors close to the heater itself and one movable one.

I'm intrigued that I'm advised to test with a petrol vehicle,  it's almost like diesel doesn't give off enough CO.

[Meantime]

11 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

I'm intrigued that I'm advised to test with a petrol vehicle,  it's almost like diesel doesn't give off enough CO.

Don't forget that carbon monoxide results from the incomplete burning of the fuel. So a properly functioning heater will give off very little CO, with more likely when it is starting up and at run down time, or when it goes faulty, which could happen at anytime!

[dom]

38 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

I'm intrigued that I'm advised to test with a petrol vehicle,  it's almost like diesel doesn't give off enough CO.

Engine related CO deaths occur more often on petrol powered vessels (in the leisure industry at least).

Diesel engines run on the principle of combining a hydrocarbon with oxygen. When it's running properly, the output is CO₂ and water and only tiny CO levels. You can't get too blasé about it though, as the second they're not running optimally, you'll get incomplete combustion of the fuel. That results in Carbon Monoxide being produced in large volumes (and, I'd guess, something akin to Hydrogen Peroxide).

Both diesel engines and diesel heaters are reasonably safe in terms of emissions, as long as you get the exhaust safely overboard, which is why incidents with heaters tend to be rare, unless using dodgy exhausts.

The danger with diesel heaters (irrespective of brand) is that one of the main issues they have is carbon accumulation. If they're run low too much of the time, they "fur up" with carbon. That stops heat transfer into the chamber walls, cools combustion and results in a less clean burn. Eventually, CO emission will rise, which increases the chances of it getting drawn into cabin areas. For that reason, it's important that every few weeks continual use, you wind the heater up full for a while to try and burn off the internal deposits.

 

[Vaughan]

4 hours ago, dom said:

Engine related CO deaths occur more often on petrol powered vessels (in the leisure industry at least).

I can certainly agree with that, but not with the rest of your post.

 

4 hours ago, dom said:

You can't get too blasé about it though, as the second they're not running optimally, you'll get incomplete combustion of the fuel.

Which is exactly what turbo charging is all about.  Have you considered what "compression ignition" basically means?

 

4 hours ago, dom said:

The danger with diesel heaters (irrespective of brand) is that one of the main issues they have is carbon accumulation. If they're run low too much of the time, they "fur up" with carbon.

Well, in my years of stripping down heaters and servicing them I have never found this problem.  The burner units are usually clean.  This may be why Webasto (diesel) and Trumatic (gas) heaters are now factory sealed and cannot be "got into" for cleaning or maintenance as there is no need.

What you may be confusing, is the need for modern appliances to be room sealed.  That is, that they draw their combustion air from outside the boat and exhaust their fumes outside as well, usually from a flue pipe which has inner and outer pipes.  The centre one for the exhaust and the outer for the admission air - which has the effect of cooling the exhaust at the same time.  This is just what you will find in your house, if you have gas or oil fired central heating.

Please don't let's get into a flap about blown air heaters - either gas or diesel.   If they are installed properly as a room sealed unit, they are not going to "creep up on you" in the night.

The possible effect of their exhaust on other boats, moored together stern on, is maybe another matter!

[dom]

17 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

Well, in my years of stripping down heaters and servicing them I have never found this problem.  The burner units are usually clean.  This may be why Webasto (diesel) and Trumatic (gas) heaters are now factory sealed and cannot be "got into" for cleaning or maintenance as there is no need.

I've not had experience with gas Trumatic heaters, but diesel ones definitely do have issues with carbon build up. My experience with it has largely been in commercial vehicles, so it may be that they're more prone to it. Obviously, a truck cab will warm up far quicker than the average boat, so their heaters may well tend to get run on lower settings for long periods, exacerbating the issue?

If you dig around online a bit, you will still find plenty of mention of it amongst boaters though - particularly with Chinese units, but also with Eberspacher, etc. Some people actually recommend running a cup full of paraffin through them regularly to help burn off deposits. The boat I had planned to buy earlier in the year actually had a Mikuni unit, which didn't appear to be firing up. I spoke to the main service agent and they strip and media blast them. They suggested if it had power to the glowplug but didn't fire, it was the likely cause.

I guess maybe with hire boats, minimal winter use means they're not getting run at low settings for long periods most of the time. I can imagine a lot of hirers will simply crank thermostats right up too, which'll probably help keep them clean. Don't know if there's any difference between road and red diesel which might also have an effect?

 

[Vaughan]

1 hour ago, dom said:

I've not had experience with gas Trumatic heaters, but diesel ones definitely do have issues with carbon build up. My experience with it has largely been in commercial vehicles, so it may be that they're more prone to it. Obviously, a truck cab will warm up far quicker than the average boat, so their heaters may well tend to get run on lower settings for long periods, exacerbating the issue?

If you dig around online a bit, you will still find plenty of mention of it amongst boaters though - particularly with Chinese units, but also with Eberspacher, etc. Some people actually recommend running a cup full of paraffin through them regularly to help burn off deposits. The boat I had planned to buy earlier in the year actually had a Mikuni unit, which didn't appear to be firing up. I spoke to the main service agent and they strip and media blast them. They suggested if it had power to the glowplug but didn't fire, it was the likely cause.

I guess maybe with hire boats, minimal winter use means they're not getting run at low settings for long periods most of the time. I can imagine a lot of hirers will simply crank thermostats right up too, which'll probably help keep them clean. Don't know if there's any difference between road and red diesel which might also have an effect?

Let's get back to the start of this discussion, which was MM's questions about the safety of his new heating system.

Before I retired I was technical director for a company running over 450 Broads type hire boats on European waterways, for over 20 years.

In all that time, how many of our customers were killed or otherwise suffered symptoms which could in any way be related to noxious fumes given off by a diesel or gas fired blown air heating system?

Answer : Zero.

 

[dom]

35 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

In all that time, how many of our customers were killed or otherwise suffered symptoms which could in any way be related to noxious fumes given off by a diesel or gas fired blown air heating system?

Answer : Zero.

There have been 2 deaths due to one in 2019 though. Just did a quick check to see if there were any more and it's quite alarming how many other CO related deaths there have been from generators, exhaust leaks, etc

I've just been trying to figure out an explanation as to how both our opinions on the carbon buildup issue could be right, as I know I'm right, but also appreciate your experience. Would all of your experience have been going back a fair while? And predominantly in France? I wonder if it's either French (white?) diesel being better quality, or biodiesel related.

I don't remember diesel bug being an issue when I was around boats all the time, but it's all you hear about these days. Is the hygroscopic nature of biodiesel also worse for carbon build up in heaters? Seems plausible that carboxylic acid from biodiesel which causes filter clogging might also increase carbon in combustion?

 

[OldBerkshireBoy]

2 hours ago, dom said:

Don't know if there's any difference between road and red diesel which might also have an effect?

 

Only the red dye, unless Vaughan knows better of course.

[Smoggy]

12 hours ago, OldBerkshireBoy said:

Only the red dye, unless Vaughan knows better of course.

There's also a chemical marker added, the dye is just for roadside checks but the chemical marker is what you'll be prosecuted on.

 

[MauriceMynah]

OK, confession time.  

Many people say "I'm terrible with names, but I never forget a face"

Sadly I'm terrible with both! This problem means I see people who recognise me, yet I honestly have absolutely no idea who they are.

Rod (B52) is a classic case in point. I met him many many times, even visiting his boat before  I was able to recognise him. I don't know if I can call this a recognisable disability,  but it's certainly an embarrassing one.

This evening I was in the Swan Inn Stalham and trying to make a fuss of a small Jack Russell.  It's owner referred to me as "Maurice Mynah " , sadly I was unable to respond in kind as I was unable to recognise him nor the group he was in.

By some coincidence Rod came in and joined them.

I am well aware that this can make me appear to be the worst kind of snob, only recognising people when it suits me, but please,  that is not the case,  I genuinely have great difficulty with recognition. 

If it was you  in the Swan please tell me and accept my apologies,  I'm most embarrassed about this and have little idea how to improve my situation. 

I am a snob (decanters,  lead crystal glasses etc.) but not in this case.