How Busy Can It Get?

[dom]

3 hours ago, NeilB said:

I have radiators with individual thermostats onboard powered by a Webasto.  It also heats the hot water and if you have the space I can thoroughly recommend it.  Not sure if our Chinese friends make these as well?

You can buy refurbished Webasto Thermo Top hydronic heaters on eBay for fairly sensible money.

There are also a few cheap chinese clones around, ie. https://ebay.us/YvrzY3

 

[BroadAmbition]

Having spoken face to face with the Planar engineer that visited us at OBYS t'other year there.  His opinion of the cheap Chinese heaters was akin to buying a death warrant.  He mentioned the CE markings and standards test stickers they have applied.  Apparently they have nothing to do with exhaust / heat / wiring safety as he once looked them up - They conform to radiation of sound levels being met - nothing else.  He also stripped one down and was appalled and the lack of quality or control

So having talked to an expert - I would strongly advise against buying any sort of Chinese heater, there is a reason why trading standards have seized and destroyed thousands of em

I'd hate it if someone in here (Or anywhere else for that matter) suffered a near fatality or worse due to carbon monoxide poisoning and the like.  A breakdown of the heater won't kill you, its operation just might

Griff 

[dom]

1 hour ago, BroadAmbition said:

I'd hate it if someone in here (Or anywhere else for that matter) suffered a near fatality or worse due to carbon monoxide poisoning and the like.  A breakdown of the heater won't kill you, its operation just might

Absolutely mirror that sentiment but, buying a branded unit is no guarantee of safety. The most recent heater related CO fatality was an Eberspacher unit. Chinese and branded units are virtually indistinguishable internally. It's the exhausts on chinese units which are absolutely lethal.

CO poisoning is generally a fairly slow process. The key to stopping it is making sure you have a working CO alarm, which will highlight the rising CO level before it becomes critical. It's now mandatory for BSS, but I'd urge people to add more than the standard level of detection, to set an alarm on a phone or similar to remind yourself to test detectors regularly and to replace batteries at the start of a season irrespective of whether they're still working.

If you look back through MAIB reports for the last 10 or 15 years, there have been something like a dozen CO deaths, mostly from petrol engine or generator fumes. In every case, it was judged that proper CO detection could have prevented the deaths.

 

[Regulo]

Most of us on these forums are now aware that the kits sold cheaply online rarely come with marine standard exhausts. They were aimed and designed as heating kits for lorry cabs originally. Worth keeping in mind if you hear of anyone fitting a kit, who may not be aware. 

[Meantime]

12 minutes ago, dom said:

Chinese and branded units are virtually indistinguishable internally.

I think the bit you missed out there, is to the untrained eye. Apart from the poor build quality, Chinese heaters are assembled and shipped, not run up and tested for faults like other brands do. The CE marking on Chinese heaters is not the normal CE mark we are used to, but stands for Chinese Export and is deliberately designed to be misleading and let people think it meets the EU CE mark.

I wonder if anyone has checked with their insurance company about how they feel about them, and whether they might judge your insurance to be invalid if you fit one.

I replaced my Mikuni heater of unknown age, already on the boat when I purchased it, which lasted me 15 years, with another from Mikuni Heating. 5 years and it hasn't skipped a beat. Best of all it heats the boat really well and I only ever run it on full power to give it a blow through every few months, other than that it would be too hot.

Best bit of dealing with people that know what their doing is that the new exhaust skin fitting was slightly smaller than the old one, which would have meant drilling new screw holes and leaving one or two old ones showing. The diameter of the exhaust on the new one and the part of the skin fitting it fitted to were slightly different sizes meaning I couldn't keep the old fitting. Well actually I did, because the nice people at Mikuni Heating asked me to ship my old one to them, they welded a short piece of stainless steel tube onto it, of the correct diameter to fit the new exhaust pipe. It arrived back to me all nicely polished and no charge.

Good old fashioned customer service from a bricks and mortar business in this country. Apart from seeing companies like this survive in the face of a flood of cheap Chinese tat, I also value my life.

[dom]

1 hour ago, Meantime said:

The CE marking on Chinese heaters is not the normal CE mark we are used to, but stands for Chinese Export and is deliberately designed to be misleading and let people think it meets the EU CE mark.

CE marking on these things is a joke. It doesn't stand for anything in my experience. It's there to deliberately decieve, as there are no quality control standards on this sort of international trade. I went to CES in Vegas one year and there was an entire hall full of Far Eastern manufacturers displaying blatant clones of top selling products. They'd quite happily take orders for any product from their catalogues and add any branding or quality marking you like. I've ordered product from China in the past and stipulated that it should comply with, and be marked to EU standards (actually TUV in that case). The manufacturer duly complied, but there was nothing whatsoever in terms of checks or controls to ensure that the goods actually complied. The onus for safety in the UK really falls on the UK seller. eBay and Amazon, etc facilitate direct selling by Far Eastern manufacturers, effectively bypassing all UK standard enforcement.

It'd be great to think we could somehow suddenly reverse the last 30 or 40 years of trade and make these things ourselves, to known standards in the UK, but the horse has really bolted and it'll take a massive change of course for government to make anything change. The Chinese also have a totally different attitude and culture, to win export business at all costs, even subsidising postage to win more business.

Whether you buy a Webasto, a Planar or an eBay special, it's best to just view all these things as likely to kill you and to put precautions in place to warn of an adverse event, with either CO or fire. Chances are, some or all of their components are all being produced in the Far East these days.

 

[MargeandParge]

Seems to go for quite a few things some brand names are produced globally using locally resourced components and their name commands a premium price 

Kindest Regards Marge and Parge 

[Regulo]

Rene was in the rag trade, making men's shirts mostly. The same finished shirt went to the big high street stores and high class West End boutiques, the retail price difference quite large, as you might imagine. The only difference was the label sewn in. Towards the end of her working life, her boss was importing shirts from the far east for literally pennies, and sewing British labels in them. She got out, disgusted. 

Nothing to do with boat heaters, but I don't believe ANY label can be taken as gospel. 

[OldBerkshireBoy]

14 hours ago, Regulo said:

Rene was in the rag trade, making men's shirts mostly. The same finished shirt went to the big high street stores and high class West End boutiques, the retail price difference quite large, as you might imagine. The only difference was the label sewn in. Towards the end of her working life, her boss was importing shirts from the far east for literally pennies, and sewing British labels in them. She got out, disgusted. 

Nothing to do with boat heaters, but I don't believe ANY label can be taken as gospel. 

100% agree with your last line. Many items sold in the UK are simply "Rebadged" under licence with the enclosed written instructions changed over. One in particular can be found in houses all over the UK producing heat and hot water.

[Regulo]

Conversation with an ol' farm boy:

Me "I just bought a sack of Maris Piper spuds" 

He (with a wink) "What's ON the bag's not necessarily what's IN the bag!" 

[OldBerkshireBoy]

On 21/10/2023 at 10:27, MauriceMynah said:

 The new unit will be £150. If it turns out that the money is down the pan, well, so be it. I'll be in a better situation next year to go for the more expensive options should it be necessary. 

I made the same decision three and a half years ago when starting from scratch and they cost £100. Yes ditch the leaky exhaust which is designed to fit outside the lorry and have a gas leak moniter in the immediate area and also lag the pipes to the outlet vents with good quality lagging,

We also changed the fuel line which may of been a mistake but I can live with that. It was checked during the last BSS by a guy who doesnt cut corners and he didnt bat an eye lid.

It has served me well for all of this time often running for six hours or more every night during the winters without catching fire or gassing me but did deform a fender outside.

Yes some imports were stopped by customs however I believe this was due to the paperwork not the actual items being dangerous and just remember to run it at maximum for awhile before shutting down which I believe is good practice for all of them.

 

[MauriceMynah]

Right. I have ordered the £150 unit. It comes as the heater alone. I don't know if the fuel pump comes with it or not, but pipes, silencer etc do not. I shall be using the existing fittings. If the heater kills me... well we live and learn, and I'll never buy another one.

I have noticed that a new Eberspatcher fuel pump is well over £100. I can't remember how much but it was eye watering.  A non Eberspatcher one is about £25. Further, I was told that of the £850 bill quoted, only about £150 was labour. 

Sooner or later we, the boating fraternity will have to find out for certain if we are prepared to be ripped off by the word "marine" on everything we buy for our boats. 

When it comes to quality, I take the measure of this to be "unreliable", "short lived" or "aesthetically poor"  other shortcomings will certainly be there but not fatal ones. I have not found any evidence of anybody actually being killed injured or having suffered from fire owing to any of these units. (Having been properly installed. )

I have another idea I'd like to put forward, one which if feasible might make a possible business for someone. A bulkhead fitted silencer with cooling fins to be mounted inside the boat/leisure vehicle acting as a heating radiator.

I hate the idea of venting something hot outside from a device designed to heat an area inside. Surely we should be harnessing all the heat we can.

[OldBerkshireBoy]

36 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

I have another idea I'd like to put forward, one which if feasible might make a possible business for someone. A bulkhead fitted silencer with cooling fins to be mounted inside the boat/leisure vehicle acting as a heating radiator.

I hate the idea of venting something hot outside from a device designed to heat an area inside. Surely we should be harnessing all the heat we can.

One of the aussie or american guys on youtube has covered the idea of using the burnt off waste gasses for heat.

[Happy]

58 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

Right. I have ordered the £150 unit. It comes as the heater alone. I don't know if the fuel pump comes with it or not, but pipes, silencer etc do not. I shall be using the existing fittings. If the heater kills me... well we live and learn, and I'll never buy another one.

I have noticed that a new Eberspatcher fuel pump is well over £100. I can't remember how much but it was eye watering.  A non Eberspatcher one is about £25. Further, I was told that of the £850 bill quoted, only about £150 was labour. 

Sooner or later we, the boating fraternity will have to find out for certain if we are prepared to be ripped off by the word "marine" on everything we buy for our boats. 

When it comes to quality, I take the measure of this to be "unreliable", "short lived" or "aesthetically poor"  other shortcomings will certainly be there but not fatal ones. I have not found any evidence of anybody actually being killed injured or having suffered from fire owing to any of these units. (Having been properly installed. )

I have another idea I'd like to put forward, one which if feasible might make a possible business for someone. A bulkhead fitted silencer with cooling fins to be mounted inside the boat/leisure vehicle acting as a heating radiator.

I hate the idea of venting something hot outside from a device designed to heat an area inside. Surely we should be harnessing all the heat we can.

Look forward to hearing how you get on

[Regulo]

Time for MM to top up the first aid kit, and I don't mean the liquid one. 

[marshman]

And for those of you who have insurance, you can almost certainly take for granted that any request for a claim with those installed, will be an easy get out. As I mentioned on another thread, they refused a small fire claim where I had not had a wiring check throughout the boat, in the last five years. And it was one of the main insurers as well!!

[dom]

45 minutes ago, marshman said:

And for those of you who have insurance, you can almost certainly take for granted that any request for a claim with those installed, will be an easy get out.

I would think that passing a BSS with it installed would probably negate that argument. By definition, a Boat Safety Scheme inspection should highlight if the item was in any way dangerous.

If a claim is rejected and it was installed by someone charging in a professional capacity, claim off their public liability insurance. It seems as though legal costs are so high in 3rd party liability cases these days that most things are just paid out for economic reasons.

[marshman]

Not convinced - Chinese heater without the correct markings showing it met European standards, would almost certainly get your claim thrown out IMHO. Cannot see that a BSS negates that - why do you think Trading Standards confiscate so many?

Dom - I wish you well in your defence. I bet no hire yards fit them!!!!!! 

 

[OldBerkshireBoy]

6 minutes ago, marshman said:

 why do you think Trading Standards confiscate so many?

 

 

Incorrect paperwork was the reason given.

[Meantime]

54 minutes ago, dom said:

I would think that passing a BSS with it installed would probably negate that argument. By definition, a Boat Safety Scheme inspection should highlight if the item was in any way dangerous.

Can you imagine the cost of a BSS if it had to check that every item fitted to a boat had passed the EU CE mark! 

The BSS checks what it says it will check in the regs, nothing less, nothing more.

People have to take some basic responsibility for their own safety and realise there is a reason why some heaters cost £100 and others cost over a £1000. 

[marshman]

Doesn't take much working out does it?? After taking the obligatory 50% mark up off, and freight costs, would you trust your life to an 11yr old kid turning out out 50 a day in his old mans garden shed?

 

[Meantime]

Just now, marshman said:

Doesn't take much working out does it?? After taking the obligatory 50% mark up off, and freight costs, would you trust your life to an 11yr old kid turning out out 50 a day in his old mans garden shed?

 

Well actually Marshman you have inadvertently gone to the crux of the matter, the slave labour that assembles these things would probably be glad to earn a Dollar a day!!! Don't get me started on Temu!

[dom]

3 hours ago, marshman said:

Dom - I wish you well in your defence. I bet no hire yards fit them!!!!!!

No, but I think the point people miss are these are fitted in their thousands to trucks in China. They were cloned because there was a demand there and they were perfectly safe in that application. The only safety issue coming to light that I'm aware of is the exhausts leaking because they're spot welded. This didn't matter in the original truck applications.

I'm a massive product snob and loathe what the chinese have done to the market in our country - but I'd actually consider fitting one of these, as it's fairly self evident that the historic Webasto/Eberspacher monopoly has kept prices artificially high.

[dom]

3 hours ago, Meantime said:

Well actually Marshman you have inadvertently gone to the crux of the matter, the slave labour that assembles these things would probably be glad to earn a Dollar a day!!! Don't get me started on Temu!

Sorry, but that's an outdated perspective. India still has a lot of manufacturing like that, but most of China's manufacturing is extremely advanced. That's exactly why their economy is gaining so much ground at the expense of us, the USA, etc.

[rightsaidfred]

I won`t presume to get involved in the technical aspects of this thread but I am reminded of a couple of old sayings.

The first being you get what you pay for, likewise buy cheap buy twice.

As for the heaters  being produced for their own use given their attitude towards life in general and the Chinese population in particular that hardly inspires me with any confidence.

Fred