Berney Arms closed for good yesterday

[JawsOrca]

Sorry MM.. just worked out your post! As above though.. I think you really need road access (and get the mill to open more).. We do drive miles to go to the locks in because its a good pub (albiet nothing there), we've even driven up one day just to go there (sad I know)!

 

How about getting a boat trip to stop there too (Betsy Jane??). I think it needs to be always open during the summer months too and food needs to be available.. and we need a NBN discount of course We will certainly stop for some grub and a few pints if you take it over!! Good luck!

[MauriceMynah]

There is no access for the general public's private vehicles. Deliveries, dustcarts  emergency services all have access as do those who live there.

JawsOrca, several hire yards used to say they wouldn't come out to sort out boats that had stopped there, that was because they would have a long walk with tool boxes etc.

I don't know if that's still the case. I shall, for now, assume it is!

[BroadScot]

I remember Bob saying they used a 4x4 to bring supplies in. Ordinary vehicles are a no no. So you would require a substantial 4x4 vehicle MM. I believe some of the liquid stuff was delivered by river many moons ago also.

 

Iain.

[LondonRascal]

Well I think it is a great idea to give the place a much needed future plan that it seems, MM has certainly got a lot of ideas already to put towards.

 

I don’t agree with people avoiding the place just because of the tidal rise and fall. Just plan your arrival – especially easy from the south – to coincide with high water being able to step easily off the boat, have a couple of pints and leave before the tide has had chance to turn.  Floating pontoons would be great, they also cost an absolute fortune which is why I am sure they have never been put in at the Yacht Station at Great Yarmouth.

 

As an owner of the pub it is not the sort of opportunity that would bring as much revenue in as other alternatives ‘inland’ may, so it would need someone with open eyes to this fact and I think MM certainly would.  This would also be a specialist pub - it does not need to be especially family friendly (whatever that really means) have a warm welcome and atmosphere and serve a good selection of drinks and a damn good coffee would not go amiss either for finding one of those is a tricky business on the Broads.

 

The real issue is the asking price – it is plainly over inflated – but if you were in a position to sell you would begin by asking what you could and then waiting to see what happens.  Because this is not in a prime location, I doubt it is going to have a great deal of business interest – but it may be catching the attention of others wanting to develop it if one could (as other pubs have long gone) and become private homes. 

 

Perhaps the most fair way would be to have it for auction and then may the best man win.

[JennyMorgan]

Iain, Maurice is a 4X4 man so no probs there!

 

Back to dogs, as much as I like dogs I do see problems. I think that there is an argument that the Nelson at Reedham lost out because of the resident, slobbering dog. That aside the Berney Arms is a small, intimate pub. I have been in there when owners have come in with large wet and muddy dogs, contact has been unavoidable. Didn't worry me, it did my wife. She was bitten by a dog as a child and has always been wary of dogs. Long time ago I had the Waveney at Burgh St Peters. We had a large, white Pyrenean Mountain Dog, as much for security as anything. Big, docile beast but good customers and friends did express their reservations which did surprise me. 

[Liberty]

I have been told the building cannot get insurance against fire, as the fire engines cannot get over the railway.  

 

The track to the pub and the moorings is mainly concrete and pretty rough in places and not indicated.  The concrete runs out before you get to the pub and is then very bumpy.  There are lots of farm gates to go through, many of which are for livestock.  There is also one particular drainage ditch right next to the track for a stretch.  You do need to know where you are going otherwise it is easy to get lost.

 

You have to cross the railway twice and one of the crossings is very high causing longer vehicles to ground out (i.e. the fire engines).  Presumably the drays are shorter.  Remember you are on private property and only authorised vehicles are allowed.

[JennyMorgan]

Re floating jetties at Yarmouth, that is down to the width of the river, just not wide enough to be practical, especially with access ramps. I understand that it has been considered by the BA but the cost of setting the river banks back enough to accept ramps would be huge.

[Hockham Admiral]

BroadScot,

How did you become a moderator if you like Pickle with ham?

 

It's probably the reason he was pick(l)ed, Maurice.... I like pickles with anything!    

 

( I wish you every success with your purchase. Our local was advertised by Punch over a year ago at £290 + VAT and I know it was bought for under £200 INC VAT!)

[kfurbank]

I suspect the high asking price for this pub reflects the freeholders long expressed intentions on turning both this and his other pub into residential premises. To do so requires a planning change of use which is much easier to obtain if you can prove that the place is unviable as a public house. Various tenants have tried and failed over the recent years due to unrealistic rents, off course this also helps the freeholders case if they try for change of use. Likewise if he cannot sell it either as a public house then again his case is helped. I fear that unless someone with realistic expectations and deep pockets buys the freehold of The Berney then its days are numbered as a public house. His business model here has also been repeated at The Beauchamp Arms, which appears to be on the up at the moment, until the increase in rent moves the current tenant on again.

 

I wish MM all the best with his research and hope it leads to a better future for the Berney. I would certainly be a regular any time of year.

 

With reference to the tides and "difficulty" of mooring, I often solo cruise in a 35ft x 12ft beam boat and have never had a problem mooring here. It is often far easier to moor in a good tide than on the Northern rivers if you do it right. ALWAYS approach against the tide, you would be surprised how many don't. If the tide is running strong you can virtually stop parallel to the bank and let the rudder take you in sideways. When leaving. always go against the tide, even if that means reversing out, and make sure you go well across the river before going into forward and hurtling towards the other moored boats and side swiping them. I would much rather solo moor in a good strong tide at Reedham or Berney than at St Benet's when the wind is blowing you away from the bank. 

[JennyMorgan]

John, quite right, it is a buyer's market.

 

Better access at the moorings, floating jetties, £50,000.00? £100.00.00? 

 

Free moorings for the landlord?

 

Backpacker style  accommodation for reserve visitors?

 

Not that I like the RSPB but perhaps talking to them might be worthwhile.

 

MM is the right man, in my honest opinion, got to be a goer!

[JennyMorgan]

Keith, mooring is easy, accessing the land can be difficult. I'm no Chris Bonnington and for me it can be a struggle at low water.

[kfurbank]

The rise and fall can be a problem for some boats. On my boat I have sometimes step up to the front cabin roof and then step off there onto the quay heading. Off course if the boat is too low to get on when returning from the pub, you can always go back and have another pint and wait for the boat to rise.

 

The other problem with this pub is the lack of support from the BA. Again a common gripe from previous tenants. Others have expressed interest in putting a few caravans or accommodation out the back, but the BA have been very obstructive. I know that Chris had a couple of caravans for staff and tried putting a couple of shacks out the back, but had all sorts of grief.

[JennyMorgan]

Re accomodation, I'd consider a change of use on the shop/cafe area. The BA do seem more accommodating to commercial development than they used to be but anything at Berney will be a sensitive issue, understandably. I'm not sure that it is right to blame the BA in this instance, development really needs to be carefully considered, by all parties. If I were John then I would negotiate with the BA before rather than after purchase. It really has been a run-down site for far too many years, it needn't be but it has to be viable & I suspect that the BA accepts that simple fact of life.

[NorfolkNog]

Keith's comments are spot on - the longer term prospects for both establishments are directed down the residential route I'm afraid, unless a white knight can come forward.

[kfurbank]

Dave,

 

My understanding is that The Surlingham Ferry is an Admiral Taverns pub, which was leased to someone and then sublet to Sonia. A few years back after some disagreements the pubco took the lease back and then let the pub directly to Sonia. It would appear that while Sonia was meeting her bills, the middle man was not honouring fully his agreement to the pubco and was removed. This person also used to lease The Kings Head in Loddon, but lost that as well. At that time he moved Sue and Dereck a very nice couple from The Kings Head onto The Surlingham Ferry before he went on to move Sonia in.

 

He has had a number of questionable business dealings, some of which have been commented about on various forums.

 

The Berney Arms is not directly held by him, but a company called Parker Moles Ltd inc in the British Virgin Islands, who purchased it for £180.000 in 2001. I don't know if it is still the case, but another person who lives in the USA put a charge on the property in 2004 restricting its sale because he used to be his business partner and there was a dispute about the splitting of assets across a number of their business dealings. I seem to remember someone telling me that the issue had been resolved and the charge may have been lifted. Off course any such items would come to light in any land searches etc.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Hockham Admiral
We cannot allow people's names where litigation may take place

[marshman]

The message that has long been put out by the BA is that neither pub should ever be successful in getting a change of use granted otherwise they would have disappeared long ago - a genuine new owner however may get more help if the commitment were made to keep them open as a commercial venture.

 

However would take some courage and optimism to achieve a lot at Berney, given the issues over land access too!!!

[kfurbank]

Marshman,

 

With all due respect I believe The BA said the same about The Wherry at Langley, but that has gone now.

[NorfolkNog]

I'm very much afraid Dave may well be right

[LoddonMillArts]

...An interesting thread! If you look at the property details, the shop is not included? I know it flooded last year and the last tenants didn't take up the shop on their lease, but the shop would be important.....

[ranworthbreeze]

Hello Andrew,

Welcome to the forum from Tan & myself.

Regards

Alan

[LoddonMillArts]

Thanks guys! Just sorry I didn't find you before...look forward to joining in....Andy

[Hockham Admiral]

Welcome Aboard from us, Andy. 

[kfurbank]

Hi Andy,

 

Previous tenants haven't taken the shop on because it bumps the rent up too much, In fact one set of previous tenants wanted to stay on, but without renting the shop and were told they couldn't. The next year it was rented without the shop. However now the freehold is for sale. The title deeds show a lot of land including both properties. Are you suggesting that the shop would be with held from any sale of freehold? if so what is the significance of the shop. PM me if you'd rather not say in public forum.

[LoddonMillArts]

kfurbank - I always understood that the property had about 20+ acres of land - marshland - but land is land. The shop is not significant necessarily - the last landlord said that the flooding was so bad in January that the shop was badly damaged and the owner would not repair it himself (but still wanted to include it as an extra in the lease agreement!!!)

 

If the shop is not included, but retained by the existing owner, it rather complicates the garden and land around and parking. Having heard about the owner, I am sure that it will not be straightforward or easy to buy at a sensible price.

 

Whoever buys it will need deep pockets and a strong will to knock the owner's desired purchase price down. It's got to be one of the hardest business propositions ever!