Why a better Pilot Pick up is required!

[marshman]

With the best will in the world, I cannot see that improving the signage will make any difference at all. The signage is there but if they cannot be bothered to read it, then it will make no difference!!!

 

It is all about idleness and just not thinking or being careful with others peoples property. All the advice is out there - they just cannot be bothered to pay attention or have no concern for their actions.

 

Even if you put flashing lights and horns etc etc it would not help - after all lorry drivers have the same issues and still hit bridges with all the warnings in the world - equally some bus drivers still take double deckers under low bridges.

 

Robin - don't blame the BA, blame the punters!!!!

[kfurbank]

Would be interesting to know how many boats went aground or hit the bridges in the boating heydays of the late 60s/early 70s? Cannot see the signage being any better then. Probably people were more responsible / respectful of other peoples property? More aware that wood gives way to concrete / metal far more easily? Was CDW around then? Was the likes of John Cressey around to rescue you if you got it wrong?

[LondonRascal]

It does make a difference about the signage.

 

Other than the speed limit signage on the Broads, many of the other signs you see do not conform to a set system - not only that but why does Ludham Bridge have a large yellow advance warning sign of a bridge being ahead, but St. Olaves does not? They are of similar clearances and St Olaves surly is more dangerous since can have a far greater current running.

 

Now, let's look at sign design and an example I've made below. You will see the signs all show a speed limit of '50' but you will immediately be familiar with only one of the three examples.

 

 

 

 

This is because you are used to seeing it despite them all being of the same colour and size and providing the same information, yet only one of them do you not need to think about  or give it a moment's thought to being familiar  - conversely,  the other two stand out immediately as not being quite right.

 

Because we see and learn through patterns, we are all very used to certain signs without really being aware of it.  Because of this, a common pattern of signage has been developed, from road signs to signs inside buildings such as fire exit signs in corridors or warning signs you might see where work is being undertaken and they are all set to the same rules to be uniform thus the pattern of such is learnt by us almost subconsciously. 

 

Here is another example - which one of the signs below stands out the most and gives an immediate   feeling (almost gut instinct) as being a warning sign? 

 

 

         

 

I am sure you felt it was the yellow one with the black writing and explanation mark in triangle.

 

This is the crux of the matter.  It is not that there are not enough signs on the rivers, it is the signs there - be it beside the helm of a hire boat on above a low bridge -  are simply not evoking a familiar 'warning' reaction in people. 

 

This could well explain a why more incidents are happening these days and why previous posters on this thread have said of their experiences when they first came to the Broads as novice boaters not needing to have signs telling them this and that - because back when they first began to holiday on the Broads, as a country we had not gone 'sign mad' so as a society we had not been slowly conditioned to see and learn the patterns of these new warning signs.

 

Think back to the 1990's even - how many warning signs did you see then compared to the myriad of signs now?  Fire Extinguisher signs, fire exit signs, CCTV signs, 'keep door shut' signs, now wash your hand signs - the list is endless - but they all have become very prevalent in our world.

 

That is why I say these simple, cheap signs set to the same uniform patterns we are used to would make a difference to today's 'zombie' helmsman or woman,  many of whom may have grown up being used to signs telling them what to do and what not to do  - right down to yellow signs on the floors warning of slippery surface, where once our common sense of seeing a wet floor would tell us to go carefully, we must now be warned and told with a sign.

 

But any system would need to be uniform - it would need the hire yards and the Broads Authority to agree the wording, an audit of the signage over the entire river system would be needed (that seems like a juicy number for the Broads Authority to use some budget up on hehe) and from that audit be known what signs were needed and were not, and where new improved uniform signage could go. 

 

The most obvious would be repeaters advising to stay 'this side of the post' on Breydon Water.

 

I live in hope.

[Viking23]

Would be interesting to know how many boats went aground or hit the bridges in the boating heydays of the late 60s/early 70s? Cannot see the signage being any better then. Probably people were more responsible / respectful of other peoples property? More aware that wood gives way to concrete / metal far more easily? Was CDW around then? Was the likes of John Cressey around to rescue you if you got it wrong?

No CDW then, you paid a deposit which you got the full amount back if there was no damage.

Once we owned up to breaking a plate, or an odd glass, they said no problem, and we never lost a penny. I took all our boats through Wroxham bridge, Golden Horizon, Spring Horizon, and several Connosieures, etc

[C.Ricko]

Robin,

would you not want the NSBA to be involved with your signage, would private boaters not need to have the obvious pointed out to them?

[LondonRascal]

Clive, perhaps I may  help instigate some kind of  change, a catalyst if you will - but how it comes about and who decides who is covered and by what means is up to the 'powers that be'.

 

I'll prefer not to be a power that be, it tends to gets too complicated lol.

[C.Ricko]

Yes Robin, but we all have ideas and unless you are in an arena where people will take your idea forward or tell you you are wrong you may as well leave it in your head as a forum will never land your thoughts where they need to end up to make a change, the community here is that of  a armchair spectator where advice or initiatives must be taken with a pinch of salt as in the case of  some situations major damage can be caused by taking advice from un vetted but respected members.. 

[Warp]

My only real issue with bright signs is that they are not the most picturesque things to be placing on the broads so should be kept to a minimum.

 

The air draught signs on the helms I'd imagine can't be mistaken? I'm guessing that it's the gauges that are being misunderstood.

 

As Swift says people do read the gauges incorrectly. I think because 'up is less' and 'down is more' or something. If they are fouled too as Robin says then that's going to make it worse.

 

I'd say that inches are important and should probably be marked in addition to feet as I think that will help people key into which way the numbers are going better. Especially for us younger ones who grew up with decimal divisions.

 

I think this is a good place to discuss and inform ideas before taking them elsewhere? There are some really knowledgable people on here who can set one straight from their experience at the sharp end!

[BroadScot]

Well, well, can we go OFF thread or what  From a Why require a Pilot Pick up to signage,  As I started this thread, about Pilots now its become one for Navigators, or rather Navigation!  Fair enough Robin, many interesting points.

 

As Clive said, we are armchair spectators, which in fairness yup I am one when not down on holiday, but many are those who use the Broads often.

 

I put the suggestion for better Pilotage, as personally I think at present, at busy times, its a complete shambles, as the Pic shows on page 1.

 

 

Iain.

[Broads01]

Robin, I'm with you on signage on Breydon. The current coloured posts system is flawed because it relies on the helmsman working out which is left and which is right. Imagine driving down a motorway, seeing a line of red posts down the centre lane and being expected to work out which side to pass them. A change to a system with arrows on each post would make a huge difference. They have such a system on the Erne waterways in Northern Ireland which I've experienced and it works very well.

For bridges though, I agree with those that have said signage makes little difference. On the San Remo example, there is a sign at the helm saying "This boat will not pass under Wroxham Bridge". How much clearer could that be?

[stumpy]

Just a thought - laudable though Robins idea is - day glow huge signs all over a National Park? The tree-huggers would go do-lally!

[marshman]

Robin - for what its worth I will reiterate my earlier comment that increased signage will not make any difference simply because they either don't want to read them or simply cannot understand. Equally your proposals already show signs of being unacceptable to those who believe the proliferation of signs, as well as achieving nothing,would be unwelcome. After all boats have been coming back to yards as a result of accidents since it all started. Neither do I believe more accidents happen now - its just we all know about them as a result of social media.

 

Responding to Iains original post, I am sure better arrangements for the pick up could be made but its all about having the cash - anyone got a £1m or so knocking around so they could buy some real estate to facilitate this??

[LondonRascal]

I apologise to keep this debate as to signage going on a thread about pilots but feel I must reply.

 

The signs I talk of would not be day glow and certainly not all over the nonexistent National Park – they would be at only two locations:

 

• On bridges

• On navigation posts on Breydon Water

 

There are already signs at bridges and on some of the posts on Breydon Water with regard to water skiing – this would mean very few new signs would go up.

 

My point is the signs need to be of a format that causes an instinctive reaction and response – and you only can do that using a sign format people are familiar with from other situations where warnings are required – like a slippery floor.

 

As to their effectiveness, I doubt that they would stop all the issues from boats being taken through bridges that they should not, or people straying out of channel and running aground on Breydon Water of course not but I truly believe they would help stop some.

 

Think of a first timer, nervous and anxious at the thought of going over Breydon Water north to south and yet complete it having taken note of instructions published. A few days later they are returning south to north, and the posts they see coming down the river Waveney ahead of them looks very much different and confusing ‘on the ground’ compared to the published guide.

 

To see a sign saying  ‘keep this side of post’ stops in a flash any doubt, because the signs format was familiar it also stood out and initiated an instinctive ‘warning’ reaction thus they steer back towards the channel.

 

This would be one less boat to be pulled off the mud. And make the £10.00 plastic sign screwed to a wooden post very much worthwhile.

 

I believe we have reached the point where people in their late twenties and early thirties are so very used to instruction this basic approach is not to be seen as any insult to their experience or common sense, but simply to back it up and quell any anxiety. 

 

This is down to everyday life having grown up with a world full of signs directing them to do things, or warning them from doing them – just take a look at road signs and how many more of these you see these days, motorway LED signage getting ever more prolific, new cars with warning stickers on sun visors, under the bonnet warning of the obvious – yet they are all there and growing in number.

 

Pilot at Wroxham:

 

Yes, on topic! The picture that shows he hectic scenes at Wroxham of course only occurs in peak season and at particular busy times.  Because of this there is very little incentive to provide any extra moorings for the pilot.

 

Let us just say Barnes Brinkcraft allowed 100ft of moorings adjacent to their yard to be used – people would surly then argue these should be public visitor moorings or ‘multi use’ moorings where boats waiting for the pilot could stop but also a visiting boat could moor.  I doubt this could work out and the issues would have been shifted down river a little way.

 

think the best solution is get rid of Wroxham Bridge as it is – it is already in a poor structural state having the ‘temporary’ road bridge placed above it. If a new ‘square’ bridge was to be put in place much like Ludham Birdge is, even if the height remained the same one could do away with the need of a pilot.

[marshman]

Robin - you are becoming more contentious!!! Leave the bridge for goodness sake - are you suggesting they build a new bridge in the middle of Wroxham just so more boats can get to and spoil a very special section of river??

 

Your supporters will dwindle !!! For 45 weeks of the year the bridge as it is copes admirably with both road traffic and river traffic - at the cost of a few million you could replace it but is it economically justifiable???

 

Bit like the Acle Straight dualling argument!!!!

 

( Sorry Iain - gone orf topic again!!!! ) ( And p.s. I am not going to get drawn into that one even though i have hung it on the wall!!!! )

[BroadScot]

The reason for the chaos is WHERE the pick up point is. NBD supply the Pilots its got nothing to do with Barnes Brinkcraft.

 

I have been caught in similar problem there, having to double moor to a boat at Hotel Wroxham in late September, to await my turn, so its not just the silly season. As for the bridge, leave it alone please, for precisely for the reasons Marshy has just said!

 

 

Iain

[senator]

Robin I think you have it licked, Get rid of Wroxham and Potter bridges and while we are at it the ones at Yarmouth and Ludham, there really shouldn't be a bridge over the Broads anywhere that gives less than 16' of clearance.

 

Would also mean that Norfolk would gain some much needed hills.

 

As long as boats keep getting bigger and higher and deeper there will be the surprising coincidence that they hit bridges and run aground more often.

 

If the Broads were serious about attracting boats then they would change the bridges but then wouldn't the canals do the same?

 

If you buy or hire a boat that doesn't fit then tough, if the bits that are supposed to swing or lift don't then this is a different matter.

 

As for signage, an LED readout based on a float to give river level and available airdraft would be cheap and easy, that is until someone in a sailing boat felt there was more wind 3 inches from it and hits it.

 

the pilot service pick up? is it really that difficult in this day and age. phone up, pick up the pilot at the quay. why do you have to have mooring spaces, all you need is a watch. 

[ranworthbreeze]

Looking at the Barnes Brinkcraft webcam the other day I noticed that a couple of boats were stern moored either outside the Hotel Wroxham or next door.

These boats were compounding the problems of getting through the bridge or mooring up for the pilot.

Regards

Alan

[BroadScot]

Looking at the Barnes Brinkcraft webcam the other day I noticed that a couple of boats were stern moored either outside the Hotel Wroxham or next door.

These boats were compounding the problems of getting through the bridge or mooring up for the pilot.

Regards

Alan

Next door where the day boats are Alan, I think. I believe they are charging £10.00 for overnight there. But that may have changed.

 

 

 

Iain

[Paul]

 

Neither do I believe more accidents happen now - its just we all know about them as a result of social media.

 

I think Marshman makes a very valid point, one which we often underestimate. We all live our lives in a cyber goldfish bowl like never before and every little transgression, every little error or foolish decision is seized upon and proliferated via shutyourfacebook.com and such sites. In such an environment it is easy to think the world has gone mad, when in fact it is only social media which is mad.

[BroadScot]

Bring back B&W TV I say and only two channels! Sorry Skipper, the new software will not be required.  Only joking!!!

 

Paul, very true what you say, but as much as I am no lover of Fleacebook it does allow me to see how my nephews and nieces are growing up. Instant pics seeing a wee laddie who has a chromazone problem being given the time of his life at four years old at Alton Towers, truely wonderful.

 

 

Iain

[BuffaloBill]

To add my two-pees worth.......

As it's NBD's pilots who are taking the monies for their bosses, then surely where they have the day boats outside the Wherryman's cafe would be a far better place to wait for the pilots to pick up? Far more room and no-where near the bridge passage for other craft whilst they are waiting. They hire out most of their dayboats from the out the back so just move the rest there and you have all the room you need. They could moor stern-on or 4-5 abreast with ease.

As for Barnes providing room for that service, why should they? They don't make anything out of it so it's a no-no.

I do agree that the cafe that's allowing stern-on moorings now does create a problem when you have boats of 40ft or more on there. (I wonder if they applied for permission for that) You need to be on that side of the river to line up for the bridge early but you also get the pilots backing out from the pick-up staithe with no concern for anyone else(My view only) and blocking anyone who has managed to get lined up.

You only have to watch a private boat heading for the bridge and then being thwarted by the actions as above.

I see it almost every time I'm up and it does wind me up!

Right....I'll go back to sleep now.......

[BroadScot]

Hi Bill,

 

You have summed it up perfectly.

 

 

Iain.

[BuffaloBill]

Thanks Iain. Whilst you are waiting for your turn, you pick up a pizza from the Wherryman's!

Tell Angie that Bill sent you 

[ranworthbreeze]

 

Next door where the day boats are Alan, I think. I believe they are charging £10.00 for overnight there. But that may have changed.

 

 

 

Iain

 

Hi Iain,

This was during the day and I am almost sure that they were outside the Hotel Wroxham and must have been 30ft plus so were an hazard to boats coming through the bridge.

Regards

Alan

[CaptinDread]

says he as he's alseep at the helm right now, Loool