Co Gas Detection

[Siddy]

I've pulled this away from the other thread to discuss to leave the other topic as it was started.

Now to purchase a CO detector your looking at £15 tops for the Kidde one I take with us when we hire.

Note you are responable for your own safety as well as the hire yards doing there checks every year. it may come that yards have to install CO detectors etc but till then look after yourself.

Same when you own/share your boat. you may need 2 onboard like Griff said they have a rear kitchen but they sit above the engine both sources of CO (not sure way he has them located). On your boats the heater may be away from the kitchen and engine outside so look at locating in a cabin near the heater. Boats are moving & twisting whilst on the move and also getting knocked when mooring and this could break seals and then pass gases which won't be picked up till the next service.

Another question that popped up was rented houses. The landlord has to maintain the boiler each year and supply working Co & smoke detectors but it's down to the renter to test and swap batteries as required. Bloke I work with just re-rented a house out and I download the fire regs for him.

 

 

[Siddy]

I started this to do a poll thread to see who has them etc hire/owners, do you test the unit.

 

Like this and i will but a few question together and then re-run it towards the end of the season and see how the results change. I'll keep names private on the poll so there will be no name and shame and get a honest reply.

[JennyMorgan]

Many years ago I was involved in boarding a possible casualty. On entering we found a tableau, a snap-shot including one man still holding his hand of cards. We then found all the windows had screwed up toilet roll and newspaper stuffed into the vents and anywhere a draught might have found its way into the boat, the whole thing was hermetically sealed. A tragedy that could have been avoided, a tragedy that so obviously just crept up unnoticed on the victims. Be aware of the dangers and consequences.

[ChrisB]

It worth checking what type of roof vents are fitted to any boat that you are going too occupy.

Older craft often have the mushroom type vents which are fine but can be closed. Given that CO is very slightly lighter than air, the ventair/ventilite type that provide permanent ventilation are a safer solution.

On the premise that prevention is best incoming ventilation is vital. Much is made of heating systems, generators etc. But remember your hob and oven are just as lethal if they are operating starved of oxygen because door louvres and other entrances of fresh air are covered. I have seen on more than one occasion a set of wet weather gear hanging on a door and blocking louvres.

Like Siddy I carry a Kidde 7DCO which is always in my grab bag for use on my own boat and when I travel. They are usually less than £20, have a ten year warranty and I change the 3 AA batteries on my birthday each year.

Everyone should have one! Remember that BSS is just a moment in time thing and does in no way guarantee a boat is safe. Everyone strips their boat to the basics for the test day! What creeps back in over the next four years is anyone's guess.

[ChrisB]

PS. It is also worth noting that many butane/propane appliances emit a small amount of CO on start-up. So correct siting of the detector is important. Siting it above or too near your cooker will be a cause of false alarms. This is where the digital type that monitor the actual min/max level of CO are useful.

[ranworthbreeze]

We have a CO detector/alarm that is fitted in the lower galley section aboard Ranworth Breeze, the engine is under the lounge floor. We fitted this after a owner always brought his own on his allocations. It is tested and thankfully has never sounded other than on test.

We do tend open a window in the galley or use the extractor when operating the oven or hob, I also like to turn off the gas in the gas locker last thing at night.

Regards

Alan

[RumPunch]

I fitted one a couple of years ago. Only got the cooker, but it is, like the boat, getting on a bit....

[Vaughan]

I have always reckoned that a safe gas installation is all very well, but fixed ventilation is even more important.

Fixed ventilation cannot be closed so it is not a window that opens, or a vent that slides shut. As Peter pointed out, if you tape over a vent because you feel a draught you are putting yourself in mortal danger.

I don't have my CORGI books here at the moment, but perhaps ChrisB can remind us of the figure for the number of cubic metres of air that are used, to burn one metre of gas on a cooker. The figure will astound you.

[Polly]

Yes we have a CO detector. It nearly drove George crazy one LBBY winter lay up  when the crane's exhaust set it off and he couldn't find it to turn it off. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, ChrisB said:

This is where the digital type that monitor the actual min/max level of CO are useful.

I'd heartily agree that the digital readout ones are a significant benefit.

I have one in my boat and one in my motor caravan.

The changing reading gives reassurance that it's operating correctly, much more than just the test button.

I remember reading a forum post somewhere a few years ago where someone renewed their CO alarm in an ex-hireboat to a digital readout one and they were shocked to see how much the CO went up when they simultaneously used both rings on their cooker. Not enough to sound the alarm, but not very far below it.

They immediately installed an additional fixed ventilator near the cooker.

[wombat nee blownup]

After reading these comments we've decided to changed ours to a digital one.

http://www.superlecdirect.com/p-7dcoc-kidde-digital-displayed-carbon-monoxide-detector-7dco?gclid=CjwKEAjw7e66BRDhnrizmcGc8VcSJABR6gaRDM2x_nXOLRiGBsyfxhACbqicnxbCWSDH0e7g1qzY1RoCs_nw_wcB

is this the sort? It says suitable for boats. Where best is it fitted in relation to the cooker and at what level?  m'dears

[ChrisB]

53 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

I have always reckoned that a safe gas installation is all very well, but fixed ventilation is even more important.

Fixed ventilation cannot be closed so it is not a window that opens, or a vent that slides shut. As Peter pointed out, if you tape over a vent because you feel a draught you are putting yourself in mortal danger.

I don't have my CORGI books here at the moment, but perhaps ChrisB can remind us of the figure for the number of cubic metres of air that are used, to burn one metre of gas on a cooker. The figure will astound you.

I am not that well up on combustion! Having been retired for 10 years but for the last 10 years of my career I worked for the Swiss Company that invented the original cold cathode ionisation detector and a range of gas detection. Now part of Siemens.

During the Second World War, the Swiss Government, though neutral were very worried about Hitler resorting to the use of poison gas. They employed a Physicist, Dr Smilie to work on gas detection. At the time he failed to come up with the pelistor type gas detection and worked on the twin chamber principle with (heavens forbid) radium as an ionisation source. Being a 80 to 100 a day man in his lab he invented the ionisation smoke detector really as an accident.

He later founded Cerberus which became a world leaded in all forms of detection financed by UBS. In 1998 UBS wished to return to a core business model of banking and disposed of their industrial holdings. Cerberus became part of Siemens Building Technologies some two years later.

[ChrisB]

On the subject of the danger of incomplete combustion, Wood Burners if incorrectly installed can be a very dangerous source of CO. One has to remember that air is only 21% oxygen at sea level so only 21% of the capacity of a boat or room is any good for combustion.

[Mowjo]

I have one fitted on my boat and it's always the first thing I fit on any boat of mine, I aslo have two solar vents, one taking in air and the other taking it out, they are solar rechargable so still work when the Sun goes down, I have a petrol engine and my alarm will go off if the wind is from behind the boat, as it blows the fumes in and it's one reason why I leave the cabin door open when on the move or the engine is running, and the front hatch slightly open to blow any fumes through, I think the main question we have to ask ourselves is are our lives worth more than the £15/£20 an alarm cost, I know mine is!! on the BSC I can't see them making it compulsory unless they are sealed units, I know quite a few people that have them on their boats or in the home and the first time they go off they just take the battery's out, I'd like to find a hard wired one that can be fitted on the boat but I don't think they make one yet,,

[Vaughan]

I have just been looking up the figures.

1 cu ft of Propane LPG requires 23.8 cu ft of air.

1 cu ft of Butane LPG requires 31 cu ft of air.

Think on that.

[Guest]

I've fitted additional fixed ventilation to every cabin boat that I've ever owned.

Too many relied on opening windows.

I usually go for stainless steel tannoy vents on the roof and additional louvered vents on the cabin door.

I tried the solar powered roof vents, but I found they only lasted about two or three years, so I went back to the Tannoys, which seem to have a greater passive effective area, and nothing to go wrong.

[ChrisB]

1 hour ago, Mowjo said:

I have one fitted on my boat and it's always the first thing I fit on any boat of mine, I aslo have two solar vents, one taking in air and the other taking it out, they are solar rechargable so still work when the Sun goes down, I have a petrol engine and my alarm will go off if the wind is from behind the boat, as it blows the fumes in and it's one reason why I leave the cabin door open when on the move or the engine is running, and the front hatch slightly open to blow any fumes through, I think the main question we have to ask ourselves is are our lives worth more than the £15/£20 an alarm cost, I know mine is!! on the BSC I can't see them making it compulsory unless they are sealed units, I know quite a few people that have them on their boats or in the home and the first time they go off they just take the battery's out, I'd like to find a hard wired one that can be fitted on the boat but I don't think they make one yet,,

The problem on small leisure boats is that unlike the security business which is 12v DC most fire and gas dectection for permanent hard wiring are 24v DC.

[stumpy]

The first thing we fitted to No Worries was a Fireangel CO detector. It's a sealed unit with a life of 7 years,it has a green flashing LED to show its functioning which goes amber when it's time to bin it and start again. We know it works as a hire boat set it off with its exhaust while moored at Womack last year -apparently they had to run their engine because a light on the dashboard told them to. £20-odd didn't seem a lot for peace of mind! We 

[BroadScot]

15 minutes ago, stumpy said:

apparently they had to run their engine because a light on the dashboard told them to.

That is correct, its on many of the new build hire boats. When it drops to Amber lights, you are requested to run your engine.

Iain

[stumpy]

Harrumph!(rustles Daily Telegraph in a pointed manner) - you'll be telling me there's televisions on board next!

[BroadScot]

9 minutes ago, stumpy said:

Harrumph!(rustles Daily Telegraph in a pointed manner) - you'll be telling me there's televisions on board next!

Yup, Broadway had two on board with colour ! YES COLOUR i kid you not ! 

[stumpy]

Coo blast bor what'll they think of next?

[BroadAmbition]

We have two fitted onboard one in the fwd and one in the aft pasageways.  they detect both smoke and monoxide.  They are easily tested by simply pushing a button.  They are proper loud, easily heard above the engine / tv / cd etc  The aft one has been set off a few times by - the toaster so we try to remember to shut the doors from the galley to the aft passageway to stop it sounding off if well done toast is wanted.  Can't remember what we paid for them, I think they were about £20 each but what price do you put on your boat let alone your life?

Griff

[RayandCarole]

We have the fireangel with digital display on Tangara, and it certainly shows low levels of CO when cooking even with doors and windows open.

added bonus it shows cabin temperature so if its too cold we know when to shut off the ventilation

  just joking

Ray & Carole

[ChrisB]

Both the Kidde and Fire angel combined smoke/CO are very good products. I only have a very small boat but if I wished to protect a large 30ft+ boat my preference would be a Heat Enhanced Optical smoke detector and a dedicated CO detector. My reason for this choice  is with the low head room in boats ionisation as combined usually are, employ a radioactive source, today this is usually Americium 241 which is pretty tame by the old radium standards but are designed assuming a ceiling height of 8ft.  Ionisation should certainly not be fitted above your head where you my be for a long period ie above your bunk.