LondonRascal Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 Every now and then this topic will present itself, and with the soon to be even shorter days once the clocks go back an hour and Half Term being the last part of the hire season approaching no doubt more reports of hire boats cruising after dark will come about. While the NBF have had what I will call their ‘open night’ with John Packman I was surprised with a response he gave in regard to hire boats navigating after dark. Effectively the gist was that sunset times are shown in tide tables and since most hire boats do not have the proper lights fitted they should not navigate at night and once a fortnight Rangers take after dark patrols. It just felt a very ‘shrug of the shoulders’ response as if a hirer was to be caught they would get advice and maybe a written warning and just maybe be prosecuted depending on the circumstances. I think far more emphasis should be put on the risks and prohibition of such cruising when hire boats are handed over and that the Broads Authority should take this matter more seriously too. If you are a Ranger on the river Ant and it is summertime are you really going to go out after after 9pm when it is finally dark and cruise the length of the river and return to your shed at Irstead? Would you do this on a chilly damp October evening at 5pm..? I suspect it is up to the Ranger as to how long he may stay out and where he may cruise to – so a pootle over Barton Broad up and back might very well be more the order of the day, but I might just be being too cynical here. The chances of being ‘caught’ are next to nothing and if they were it is equally likely that some advice would be proffered and that be that. Recently I navigated Broad Ambition from the wet shed in Stalham to Herbert Woods basin, and after Ludham Bridge this journey was done in the dark as the last of the light faded. It is (especially on the twisting River Ant) something that requires a lot of concentration and yet when you see hire boats seeking a mooring they commonly have all their saloon lights on meaning they have virtually no ‘night vision’ what’s more it is usually carried out with anxiety thus are cruising well over the posted speed limit so if they did hit a bank or another boat the resulting damage would be greater. Though not a hire boat, as we cruised past Thurne Dyke a privately owned dinghy with an outboard shot out across our bows, no lights of any kind were displayed with two people in it – the idea that ‘they can see us’ is of little use when you suddenly see a small boat off your starboard bow and have to come off the power and go astern. Even a £1.00 led bike light would be better than nothing and given fair warning of their presence. What are others thoughts on this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroadScot Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 Just as well its not the daylight hours we have up here in the summer, Robin, the Rangers would still be working at 11pm ish till it was dark ! Iain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marshman Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 Not ideal to do it at all but not sure how you can really do anything about it. You can tell people on handover and write it in the books, but all that will stop nothing at all. You would not expect the BA to realistically prosecute - if you do are you prepared to pay the costs of so doing possibly in excess of £1000 or more just for a fine of what to be imposed, £100? I would hazard most magistrates would consider it a non event and possibly even do a lesser fine! It has the POTENTIAL to be dangerous but how many cases a year actually result in real damage? There is little or no concrete evidence to suggest it is a major issue and I think his response evidenced that. It is a concern, but is something that has always happened and to be honest I do not believe it is any more prevalent now than before and I see it as a bit of an irritation but not a lot else! However no doubt someone will prove me wrong....!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donnygeoff Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 just a thought............ Hire craft can't cruise after dark because they are not fitted with navigation lights (I believe that is the only reason, could be wrong though) So, what if...... I get a portable green light, a red light and a couple of white lights and put them on the roof (hopefully in the right position) .................... Then the boat will have navigation lights As I said just a thought... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroadScot Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 13 minutes ago, donnygeoff said: just a thought............ Hire craft can't cruise after dark because they are not fitted with navigation lights (I believe that is the only reason, could be wrong though) So, what if...... I get a portable green light, a red light and a couple of white lights and put them on the roof (hopefully in the right position) .................... Then the boat will have navigation lights As I said just a thought... What's the betting Geoff, that someone would fit the port and starboard lights the wrong way round ! Iain 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donnygeoff Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 then they would be really confused, just like me ..... not knowing whether I was coming or going....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baitrunner Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 I may be wrong, but the main reason is they aren't insured for cruising after dark. So you can have as many lights as you want - you will still be a very naughty boy. I would hope the rangers would take a fairly hard line with any errant skippers - sure 30 mins after dark maybe they got caught out then just slap their wrists, but much more and it's the naughty chair I have only ever see a couple out after dark and only one of those was significantly after dark and they should have been fined the max. To have travelled from Brundall to Breydon Water on pick up day there would have been loads of places they could have stopped instead of pushing it. They were lucky they also got the last slot at Polkeys Mill or they would have had to go to Bernie Arms and the crew had no idea how to moor the boat either. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaughan Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 Hire boats are not insured for night navigation and yards make this very clear on the trial run. So if they do any damage after dark, they pay for it. If you think of how few hire boats you actually see moving at night, this is probably a good deterrent. They are not insured for towing, either. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonRascal Posted October 21, 2016 Author Share Posted October 21, 2016 This problem is detection - and the fact there is of course heightened risk when cruising after sunset - even mooring up in the dark is going to be more risky than in daylight. The problem may not be worse than it has been in the past, perhaps it is just that in the day and age of increased social media use people talk and share instances more. The other issue of course is if your in a hire boat, you cruised after dark, you hit a solid bank and did damage, how would your base know this happened at night (or their insurers) it would only be if such was witnessed by a third party or they collided with someone else that evidence could used that this was no normal mishap but a clear breach of the hire agreement. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baitrunner Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 If I got hit by a hire boat after dark I am now thinking I would agree with the skipper to report it as done during daylight. The hire company insurers will pay out a heck of a lot easier than trying to sue someone!! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teadaemon Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 8 minutes ago, Baitrunner said: If I got hit by a hire boat after dark I am now thinking I would agree with the skipper to report it as done during daylight. The hire company insurers will pay out a heck of a lot easier than trying to sue someone!! As I understand the situation, it's similar to how third party insurance on your car works. In other words, in the situation you describe, their insurance company would have to pay out to you, but they'd then they'd be perfectly entitled to sue the hirers in order to recover what they'd paid out. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brandenjg Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 When I had my BSS I was told I didn't need the centre white light, just my red and green so I removed the centre light. To be fair the centre light ruined night vision completely. I find after a couple of minutes with no lights on my eyes are fully adjusted. My first cruise from Norwich to Oulton in the dark almost ended up with me hitting the brick block in the middle of the water as you leave the new cut and turn the corner. Some hirers can't see in the daytime so I dread to think what they're like at night. Branden 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grendel Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 having seen how the moored boats curtains twitched when Broad Ambition wens down the rivers after dark, I would be surprised if any managed to get away with it, mind you I wonder How many times private craft moving after dark have been reported? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baitrunner Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 Branden, I am pretty sure you still need the all round white mast light. I had a 16 footer years ago and had to have it on that. Of course knowing the BA they have a bylaw around this that is the opposite to any normal maritime regulations!! This is a good pictorial example of why you need it. http://www.bosunsmate.org/seamanship/lights.php 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanessan Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 Fairly recently I was talking to a private boat owner whose boat was damaged quite badly when a hire boat hit him late at night. The boat did not stop and, as it was dark and the guy was in bed, he was unable to get any definite details other than the name of the hire yard. Needless to say, without any witnesses the boatyard did not want to know. Nothing he could do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timbo Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 Wayford Bridge, most evenings in summer after dark there will be two maybe three hire craft come heading up to the public moorings at a fast rate of knots; All cabin lights blazing, more I think so others can see them...others thinking it will help them see where they are going. If Jon is in the yard doing his rounds before home you will hear him bellow for them to slow down. Those that don't have the TV on will hear him and throttle back before the bridge those that do have the TV on go hurtling onwards and then you hear the engine, prop churning and the odd shout of 'f****** hell' when they spot the bridge. Most of the hire craft are Herbert Woods or Barnes. I've seen folks sat on top of the boat in the dark heading for the bridge too. The apathetic attitude from Dr Doom on this and all other aspects boating and navigation matters is typical and flaming dangerous. One day, there will be a serious injury. One aspect of the Broads Plan consultation talks about regulating traffic on both roads and waterways.The BA can already issue on the spot fines for environmental issues such as littering, graffiti and dog control offences.. As an authority with planning control, if they so wished, there are areas here where they can issue fixed penalty notices. As a cashed strapped authority you would have thought they would be chasing the opportunity to get in some extra revenue. Bearing in mind their navigation duties and obligations I'm surprised the 2009 Broads Act codicil didn't give them powers for fixed penalties on the navigation...but I suspect there were reasons the gov were loath to do this. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExSurveyor Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 Sitting on the Yare tonight ,, two hire craft have passed, well after dark with all internal lights blazing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gretzky Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 2 Hire boats passed me on Wednesday night while I was moored at Stokesby. It was well after dark, they were about an hour apart and neither had nav lights. Add to that the fact it was hammering it down with rain I think visibly must have been near zero. Idiots.... in my opinion anyway.. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjg1677 Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 Couldn't agree more with most of what has been said here. When I bought and insured my boat I checked that my insurance covered me for night cruising, apparently there are some that don't, so it is definitely worth checking your policies. I was moored up at Potter last saturday, it was blowing a gale and made for very interesting nay scary viewing. A hire boat came past about 8pm with all cabin lights on and at some speed, weaving all over the place. They shot past me ( I was moored just downriver of the ladder by the pilot station ), I then heard lots of engine revving, evidently the skipper had seen a large intermittent contact on his night vision, commonly known as PH bridge. I didnt get out in time to see what happened but after much shouting and engine noise, it shot back past in the opposite direction. Don't know who it was other than it was a bathtub and am assuming it was hire as there were no navlights evident. It does provoke the thought - what could have happened given the fact it was pitch black and pretty darned windy, makes you shudder !! trev Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 20 hours ago, LondonRascal said: If you are a Ranger on the river Ant and it is summertime are you really going to go out after after 9pm when it is finally dark and cruise the length of the river and return to your shed at Irstead? Would you do this on a chilly damp October evening at 5pm..? I suspect it is up to the Ranger as to how long he may stay out and where he may cruise to – There was a Ranger out last weekend at around 9pm the other night with a policeman on board. When i spoke to a different ranger about this later in the week he told me they were looking for people who may be doing outboard thefts. He also told me that it meant that the ranger in question could not work the day before or the day after the night patrol as he had to have time off legally. If we want night patrollers then the day time ranger work will suffer a reduction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JennyMorgan Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 Regarding night time navigating on the Broads I well remember one trip up the Bure from Gt Yarmouth. We were struggling with the wind, our choice, but eventually resorted to our motor as we wanted to make Stokesby for the night. Getting there all the moorings were full, we had three choices, lay against the reeds in the river, carry on to Acle or drop back to Stracey. Legally speaking not a problem for us but clearly it was for a number of hire boats, boats that had probably left Yarmouth with all the best intentions but without realising the cruising times involved. I was quite surprised at how many hirers were out after dark seeking moorings. I'm sure that people set off to an intended mooring expecting that there would be room to moor, there isn't and the search begins. I really don't know the answer, not everyone wants to moor up at two in the afternoon. Getting heavy with the Fuzz & the Rangers isn't the answer, but then I don't know what is. I rather suspect that most night time navigating hireboats do so because they find themselves having to rather than wanting to. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JawsOrca Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 I'm a huge fan of navigating any times and any weather. I've done lots of thankfully but even with all the gear we have aboard boats its not easy. Now I don't believe that someone brand new to boating really shouldn't be out after dark as it's not easy and a different world.. but I do think it's a shame for experienced day crews to miss out as dawn and dusk on the rivers (and at sea) is just heaven and watching the sun going down or coming up is something I believe everyone should experience (it also removes any stress of finding moorings, which in turn allows people to go slow) (And despite what I read elsewhere the wildlife are not disturbed .. however yes certainly it should only be experienced helms.. I think there should be a couple of boats, fully equipped to allow people to experience this. I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) but some hire boats in europe (baltic, france) are fully equiped (I suspect the bareboat sailing boats in the Med are), so why not the broads. In a sense there it's more dangerous for someone who hired for the first year and then gone out and got thier own boat and straight out the 8th day.. I'd rather meet an experienced hireboat crew out after dark than these people. Also.. Nav lights are pretty useless on a winding river as they are only designed/intended to be used at distance so it's really just a legality issue, the white of the jelcoat is the first thing you see! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oddfellow Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 ALL insurance policies will be different. The key is likely to be that a vessel will not be covered for cruising after dark (regardless of hire or private) without proper conformity to the local rule and bylaws. Simple as that. No nav lights means non-conformity and therefore no insurance cover and illegal. Prime example: Freedom pod has navigation lights and so can be navigated after sunset in full compliance with the rules and regs AND remain insured. We have had customers ejected from our boats and prosecuted for travelling after sunset. I will not tolerate it. 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JanetAnne Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 A couple of years ago I 'escorted' two hire boats from Wroxham to Salhouse after dark. Wroxham was absolutely sardined and none of us were getting under the bridge to the completely empty moorings the other side due to extremely high tides. I got them to put torches on their roofs. We had all got caught out. It was far safer to take them to somewhere safe using my lights than leave them to blunder about in the pitch black. I did wonder about mudweight on Wroxham broad but we all had dogs on board... I think the increasing lack of moorings is more the issue here 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JawsOrca Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 Andy, I think you've explained really well about no nav lights.. non-comformity.. thus insurance cover vold. So thanks for that.. 1 hour ago, FreedomBoatingHols said: No nav lights means non-conformity and therefore no insurance cover and illegal. Your other points are interesting though, certainly in respect to my point that I personally would like to see hireboats equipped for experienced helms... So your freedom pod has this.. does that mean you and the mighty BA permit after dark cruising? I thought there are bylaws that clearly state "No hireboat must navigate after dark" (Again it maybe as you suggest above) so could the BA still cause an issue? Why did you also put lights on this boat (It's a new build I think isn't it?)... Interesting to see you moving towards equipping boats though and I am interested to hear your comment... Also what were the hires persecuted under? the bylaw or the terms of the hire agreement??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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