Navigation At Night.

[SEAMASTER]

At lunch time in my local watering hole. I was chatting with the usual crowd I drink with and the subject came up of  Night time navigation on the rivers. Wait for it on a hire boat. My reply was no hire boats are fitted with any navigation lights. And not  permitted to to move after sunset. Then one of the crowd piped up and said what if you fitted your own nav lights. I couldn't answer the question to that. Then he showed us on Google a light that he had  purchased and stuck it on a hire boat on the Thames last year. So is this right or wrong. 

[marshman]

Wrong!  He would not be insured!!!

[Chelsea14Ian]

I tend to agree with marshman.I also think where possible  use a bright light.

More then once have seen hirers swich on all the cabin lights believing that would  help

 

 

[JennyMorgan]

Please, please, no BRIGHT lights, especially spot lights. Headlights on boats, grrrrrr! Maintaining night sight is just so important and anything that detracts from that is a potential hazard. 

Marsh is quite right regarding hireboat insurance, or lack thereof.

[JennyMorgan]

Re that light, could be handy:

http://www.force4.co.uk/force-4-12m-combination-nav-light-blk-100038a.html#.WMRd_TvyiM8

[NeilB]

Our hire boats were insured but only if a staff member was on board.  Rarely used unless we fancied a night out in Windsor and there was a boat spare!!

We never had a fancy set like that though, ours were home made and plugged into the cigar socket.

[Vaughan]

We should not confuse the old Thames Conservancy regulations with those of the Broads.

Neil is quite right that a boat on the Thames may navigate at night without being "fitted" with nav lights, as long as it is showing battery powered ones, laid on the side decks. The boat must also be skippered by a member of the boatyard staff. He and I have both done this on several occasions!

Driving a hire boat on the Broads at night, however, is a "No No!"

You are not insured, and you are also in breach of the contract of hire.

 

[quo vadis]

1 hour ago, MorningSwan said:

too many can't navigate during daylight

naughty

[MauriceMynah]

1 hour ago, JennyMorgan said:

Please, please, no BRIGHT lights, especially spot lights. Headlights on boats, grrrrrr! Maintaining night sight is just so important and anything that detracts from that is a potential hazard. 

Marsh is quite right regarding hireboat insurance, or lack thereof.

So what lights should one use to stay in the channel at Hickling, Barton or more importantly Breydon? or will the posts have their own lights any time soon?

[JennyMorgan]

1 hour ago, MauriceMynah said:

So what lights should one use to stay in the channel at Hickling, Barton or more importantly Breydon? or will the posts have their own lights any time soon?

Funny that you should say that! Apparently it's been suggested to the BA that it looks into solar powered lights on Breydon.

That aside, to stay in channel on Breydon at night I have found that my eyes are perfectly adequate for the task. It never fails to amaze me just how efficient eyes are at night, provided some inconsiderate so and so doesn't point a blessed spot light at me. 

[diesel falcon]

We have done one or to night nav.s the main problem was the windscreen , due forming on the out side... the screen is about 8feet by 5 feet in a single span , so wiping that is a pain, wipers only a foot long!! took the canopy off in the end and eyeballed it open top!

the dark wasn,t a problem , it was when we came to somerlaton bridge you just couldn,t determine where you should be!!

 

 

[JawsOrca]

Peter,  We helm quite a bit at night both on the broads and here at home.  I don't quite understand why you wouldnt have spot lights... a boat with a windscreen in front makes it very very hard to helm when it's pitch black.. On a river I typically sit bang in the middle and drive by the lighter reflection of the sky on the water between the reflection of the trees (you get  a white line effectively), I compare that with my plotter zoomed in. But if the tree line closes in (such as the ant) it's near impossible as that reflection light vanishes and you can't work out the river .. We have 150w spotlights on the pulpit which are low down, they don't affect night vision and light up the banks, yes they are  bright and would annoy home owners and other boaters but I only flick them on and off when needed .. Larger lakes or rivers it's a lot easier certainly with radar. But trying to drive without a spotlight on the broads is reckless imho.

[MauriceMynah]

Some nights it is possible to make out the rivers without any form of lights, Hickling broad less so. I haven't tried on a bright moonlit night, but on an overcast one I did try. I failed to stay in the channel on that occasion and was lucky not to get weeded up in the shallow water.

Try doing the upper reaches of the Ant where the trees almost meet overhead. You will not be able to see the bank (which is never far away). Yes on the wide almost treeless waters of the southern broads on a moonlit night, I'm sure that no extra lighting is essential, but should one apply the lack of necessities in one part to the whole network. 

[BroadAmbition]

I helm now and again night nav-ing, the Upper Ant is particular troublesome due to said trees, especially when no moonlight is present.  On no end of times I get 'lost' into a mild panic deciding which way the river turns next - The solution - Close my eyes briefly (Not that that makes much difference) and 'Picture' the river - then back on track again.  We do have a spotlight on 'B.A' which we use only when we absolutely must do, it was in the wrong place anyroadup reflecting back too much light and ruining ones night vision.  We have recently changed it's location so next night nav, we will see.

Night navving is not for the faint hearted, imho what is most important is local knowledge, by that I mean properly knowing the river like the back of ones hand, this reduces stress and concentration levels and makes it most pleasurable on a warm summers night.

Griff

 

[Jim]

24 minutes ago, BroadAmbition said:

Night navving is not for the faint hearted, imho what is most important is local knowledge, by that I mean properly knowing the river like the back of ones hand, this reduces stress and concentration levels and makes it most pleasurable on a warm summers night.

You kid me not Griff!  I have only done it once, by accident when I lost track of the time. Ranworth to Ferry Marina was a bit hairy to say the least and I was solo helm. I just used our normal nav lights with no spot and that kept my night vision intact.

Insurance has been mentioned here and it is worth checking your policy as a private owner. I am now insured to run solo helm and also to nav at night. On our original cover, neither of those items were covered!

[SEAMASTER]

Thank you all for all the great replies on this post. And giving me the correct answer to my question. It will make a good discussion later in my local watering hole. When I shell bring up this topic knowing I'm right. Thank you again. 

[Jim]

Thinking back, it was Fleet Dyke to Ferry, not Ranworth!!

[Vaughan]

I used to know the Yare so well between Thorpe and Reedham that the sight of one tree at night would tell me where I was. The North Rivers, not so easy! I once went over Barton at night in Hearts' towboat, to collect a broken down boat from Stalham. It was only when I came back with the tow next morning that I realised I had left all of the marker posts on the wrong side!

Can I emphasise I couple of points?

Night vision is imperative - don't lose it.

You cannot see properly through glass at night. Lower the windscreen or stick your head out of the side window.

Never go on Breydon Water in the dark. You can see all right in good weather but you wait until a mist comes down, just after dusk. I have only ever done it once, and I will never do it again.

[MauriceMynah]

When I had St Christopher I often went from Wayford Bridge to South Walsham Broad after the pub (The Woodfarm Inn as it was then) closed. As I was solo, I preferred to drop the mudweight mid broad rather that attempt a linier mooring in the pitch black. A most enjoyable cruise, helped by the fact I had a spot light of course.

[MauriceMynah]

Yes Vaughan, I have navigated Breydon in the fog, albeit daylight. No fun at all.

[JennyMorgan]

Alan, if I had my way I would have spotlights absolutely banned on the Broads, I really would. The hazard is more to other people, an indiscriminate spotlight will ruin the night sight of anyone caught by the blessed thing, If you have a problem with the windscreen then either lower it, stand up and look over the top or post a crew member on the cabin top to give directions, simple!  I watched in horror a sports cruiser go past last summer, the lights off its dashboard alone were pretty impressive but it was Blackpool Illuminations all round, an anti social menace to everyone else out on the water! A few years ago Griff & I took BA from his boathouse down to Horning for the Three Rivers, Griff graciously allowed me the wheel. Pitch dark but absolutely no problem, apart from some of the security lights blasting off as we approached Horning. At no time did I feel the need to hit the spot light button. We slipped under Ludham a treat, at no point did either of us resort to a spot light, there just wasn't a need. Griff's set up is spot-on for night navigation, we had the cockpit sides and windscreen in place but the cockpit was dark so no reflections, I really enjoyed that trip, jokes included!

[brandenjg]

I've flicked the spotlight on twice, both times on my first journey to Oulton broad. The first near St olaves so I wouldn't hit the bridge support the second was when I got to Oulton broad as I was heading straight for a moored sailing boat without realising. I got a spotlight flicked back at me at Oulton and I'll admit.... My God it was bright.

 I agree insurance or not, hire boats shouldn't navigate at night as it's too much of a risk to everyone on the water. I know alot of hirers have loads of experience and hours at the helm but at the end of the day it isn't theyre boat they're taking the risk with. Unless they hire the same boat week after week for years, each boat must handle differently and these subtle differences could result in misjudgement with night navigation.

[JennyMorgan]

8 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

I used to know the Yare so well between Thorpe and Reedham that the sight of one tree at night would tell me where I was. The North Rivers, not so easy! I once went over Barton at night in Hearts' towboat, to collect a broken down boat from Stalham. It was only when I came back with the tow next morning that I realised I had left all of the marker posts on the wrong side!

Can I emphasise I couple of points?

Night vision is imperative - don't lose it.

You cannot see properly through glass at night. Lower the windscreen or stick your head out of the side window.

Never go on Breydon Water in the dark. You can see all right in good weather but you wait until a mist comes down, just after dusk. I have only ever done it once, and I will never do it again.

I suppose I've got to admit to that being sound advice but so far I have not come to grief, yet. Those old Norfolk boys knew a thing or two when they spaced out the posts on Breydon. Even on the darkest night as you leave one post astern the next one will loom into view. The tops, even at high tide, can be picked up against the darkness, weird. Under sail you can sometimes hear the tide swirling past a post, all quite eary, but everything helps, even the old eighth sense.

[Chelsea14Ian]

For me I have only traveled in poor light not patch dark.I understand  fully about spots,but would  use  if I thought  there was a danger at any time Peter you and Griff  have clearly more experience  then me.However Marina does not like travelling  at night

[MauriceMynah]

No misjudgement possible Brandenjg, as has been clearly stated everyone can see everything as long as they don't use lights. Come to think of it, maybe hire craft should ONLY go out at night when visibility is so much improved. That ol' sun can really harm your night vision.

 

Hmmm, Sorry Peter, I got a bit carried away there. Suffice to say I disagree with you on this. and to ban such lights would spell the end of night cruising for me as I wouldn't be able to leave my mooring safely.