Navigation At Night.

[Speleologist]

Just now, Vaughan said:

In my opinion the steaming light and the sternlight cannot be combined into one all round white light, since it is unlikely that just one light would be visible all round in reality.

Vaughan, you are absolutely right for many boats, however provided it is visible it would be legal on a boat of less than 12m. It would be quite easy to meet the visibility requirements if the unit were mounted for example, on an A frame of a RIB, or on the Radar arch of a cruiser fitted with one. It would also be legal under IRPCS and is quite a common solution for small vessels.

[brandenjg]

8 hours ago, MauriceMynah said:

No misjudgement possible Brandenjg, as has been clearly stated everyone can see everything as long as they don't use lights.

I was referring to the size and shape of Boat. If a hire boat has a forward helm spotlight or not they won't be able to see say they're right rear corner of the boat. Private owners know there boats and know there size shape and maneuverability. Hire boaters would find this harder. Branden

[Speleologist]

Just now, brandenjg said:

Private owners know there boats and know there size shape and maneuverability. Hire boaters would find this harder.

But hire boaters are not allowed to navigate at night.

[brandenjg]

Just now, Speleologist said:

 

Just now, Speleologist said:

But hire boaters are not allowed to navigate at night.

Exactly the reason why this topic was started. To see if a hire boat could navigate at night aslong as it had nav lights. The answer is no. As you say hire boats are not allowed to navigate at night. I was trying to convey a reason as to why I think hire boats shouldn't risk night navigation.

[JennyMorgan]

6 hours ago, Jim said:

A local friend used to moor in the Solent and owned a rather large sea going boat.  When he sold it, he gave me a high power flood/searchlight.  It is safely tucked away for future use elsewhere and is nowhere near our boat, nor will it ever be!!

Good point about viewing through glass.  I had the canopy off when night cruising so the best view was available.  If however, I had remembered our trackplotter which was switched on, life could have been a whole lot easier...oops!

Trouble with chart-plotters, and probably track plotters too, is that they are in themselves a light source. The same can be said for the Beta Light on my compass but I rarely use that on the Broads!  

Regarding open water cruising on the Broads, unless tacking a yacht I would remain in line with the posts, or the bank, navigating from one post to the next. 

As for how far away can a light be seen, many years ago I taught survival training and navigation in relation to boating and one topic was just how far away could a lit match be seen? On a clear night up to a mile and a quarter! The reason for that was to help assess just how far offshore one was, at a time when at least two thirds of the population smoked. 'Oh look, someone has just lit up, ready about!'

 

[LondonRascal]

I think night navigation is something you are either comfrotable with or not. You do need to adjust your helming to the task and where in the day you can take yoru eye of the ball for a bit, at night you really will regret doing it so concentration is key and having any crew aware that if they are off to the galley for a drink or cabin don't put the lights on as it will cause no end of issues to whoever is on the wheel as their eyes will take time to re-adjust to the inky darkness.

I bought a small LED light bar just to place at the bow of Broad Ambition when needed, and as it offers a wide angle of even, crisp white light (rather than a sport of light) - this makes mooring at night far easier as you come alongside.  But when on the rivers I now use my phone, dimmed right down to show on Google Maps where the boat is in real time - where that fork is in the river, or the tight left hander to prepare for. That really does help especially when there is little or no moonlight.

But, as I found last October - having left Stalham at night to cruise to Potter Heigham, and all being well until Thurne Dyke when a small, unlit dinghy with an outboard shot out and across out bow - they can see us sure, but we cannot them so abrupt full astern to avoid ramming them but we are the ones in the wrong and get the 'telling off'.  Something would be better than nothing, even if it breaks the rules I'd rather know anyone would be able to see I was there which can apply to the anglers moored in the middle of rivers at night with no lighting to show they are there.

 

[BroadAmbition]

I've navigated over Breydon during daylight hours in thick fog before now on a few occasions.  One particular time it was really bad,  It was on one of our 'Lads Weeks',  'B.A' plus 2 x hire boats.  It was a proper nightmare. Impossible to see the next post after losing sight of the previous one.  What saved us was a briefing between skippers before we sailed on exactly how we were going to accomplish it safely, PMR's and having an ex-RN chap on each boat.  By keeping just one boat visual, meant that all three boats were visual between us, then by each boat reporting on post locations and our line of sight bearing between boats we managed, but it was hard work with concentration levels through the gates, not something I would wish to repeat in a hurry.

I've only ever night navved over Breydon once, years ago as a 14 yr old, sat on top of a Broom Admirals roof holding a car type spotlamp on a bit of wood, I burnt my thumb holding the earth wire against the casing.  Dad was on the helm.  We managed just fine

However we have night navved down the Ant / Bure and out to sea at GYA then onto Ipswich onboard 'B.A' - That was magical, well at least it was once we got to GYA after the fog had cleared. Sunrise between GYA and Lowestoft out at sea was a sight I intend not to forget.

One of these days I will night nav 'B.A' over Breydon, but I will tell you this, it is far far easier night navving out at sea than it is across Breydon and then some.  That Thames trip, both journey involved plenty of Night Navving which was far less stressful than attempting the rivers or Breydon

Griff

[Vaughan]

8 hours ago, BroadAmbition said:

That Thames trip, both journey involved plenty of Night Navving which was far less stressful than attempting the rivers or Breydon

You were, of course, in coastal "pilotage" waters where all "aids" to navigation such as buoys, beacons, leading marks and cardinals are lit at night. They each flash or occult to a different code and colour, which is also marked on the chart. All you have to do is count the flashes of a light, find it on the chart and you know exactly where you are. You can even get an accurate fix, by taking bearings off them.

The Broads is not a waterway which is set up for this. There are no aids to night navigation at all.

Some one is sure to tell me there are, but I have never seen any!    

[marshman]

Its only the busier routes which are lit - you try navigating behind Sheppey in the dark!!!

[tjg1677]

If you have a compass fitted at the helm, it makes life a lot easier as you can steer an estimated course in limited visibility across Breydon. My VHF also has a compass built into it, which has come in useful on a few occasions, particularly one foggy september morning last year on Barton broad, the VHF became worth its weight in gold and my Richardsons map of the broads became an impromptu admiralty chart........ If you are really good you can even dead reckon to figure out roughly where you are but then you need to know tides and wind speed and your speed over the ground.

trev

[johnb]

Vaughan said:

"The Broads is not a waterway which is set up for this. There are no aids to night navigation at all."

When we started boating 30 years ago, we spent a lot of time close to Ludham Bridge. There was a guy who lived on his boat there who would often leap out of his boat at night and shout at hire boats passing after dark and/or speeding (the latter including private boats). His advice as to what they should do was quite explicit and  detailed although not always anatomically possible  I  think.

I am not sure if one would call him an "AID TO NIGHT NAVIGATION"!

[brandenjg]

Robin raised a good point. Using Google maps or any GPS app will definitely help give a good idea of location at night on the Broads. I use the cyclemeter app on my iPhone for navigation if needed. Shows location and speed in point of a mph eg 4.3mph.

[Regulo]

10 hours ago, LondonRascal said:

anglers moored in the middle of rivers at night with no lighting to show they are there.

We don't night nav so much these days, but when we did, I was very aware that SOME anglers would not show a light as we approached. They seemed to be of the opinion that as they could see us, we must be able to see them. Unfortunately not always true. That's why I ruin my (and everyone else's) night vision, by flicking the spotlight on when there's overhanging trees. Regardless of who might be at fault, I don't want to run anyone down.

[JennyMorgan]

Wherries never had navigation lights, just the white 'badge' on their snouts. No, it's not just there for decoration, it served a practical purpose. 

[TheQ]

11 hours ago, LondonRascal said:

 

But, as I found last October - having left Stalham at night to cruise to Potter Heigham, and all being well until Thurne Dyke when a small, unlit dinghy with an outboard shot out and across out bow - they can see us sure, but we cannot them so abrupt full astern to avoid ramming them but we are the ones in the wrong and get the 'telling off'.  Something would be better than nothing, even if it breaks the rules I'd rather know anyone would be able to see I was there which can apply to the anglers moored in the middle of rivers at night with no lighting to show they are there.

 

No you were  not in the wrong,

 Broads regulation 19,  " but notwithstanding any other provision in these Byelaws the master of a powerdriven or manually propelled or quanted vessel crossing from one side of a channel to the other side or entering a channel from a side dyke or other waterway shall do so at a proper time having regard to any vessels navigating along the channel and shall give way to such vessels."

and fishermen anchoring in  the river,

Regulation 29 (3) Any person fishing from a boat or the bank shall show reasonable consideration to any other person using the navigation area and shall ensure that his rod or line does not obstruct the passage of a vessel along a channel.

 

regulation 57 the master of a vessel:
(a) shall ensure that the vessel is not anchored, moored, berthed or stopped in such a position or manner as to impede the clear and free passage of any other vessel, or otherwise to obstruct the navigation of a waterway or channel or the use of a right of way on the banks thereof.

 

and as part of the discussion rather than your notes

Regulation 33 (b) The Byelaws concerning lights shall be complied with from sunset to sunrise, and during such times no other lights shall be exhibited, except such lights as cannot be mistaken for the lights specified in these Byelaws or as do not impair their visibility or distinctive character, or interfere with the keeping of a proper look out or with the safe navigation of any other vessel.

Noting the underlined bit, a problem we've had on the 3RR, with people using those high powered torches to look up at sails and generally flash around to look at river banks and other boats, blinding the other boats!!!

[grendel]

3 hours ago, marshman said:

Its only the busier routes which are lit - you try navigating behind Sheppey in the dark!!!

I wouldnt want to try it even in the Day.

[Regulo]

Didn't Timothy Spall get hopelessly lost off Sheppey? Had to call the pilot to get him in.

[grendel]

I dont know, but there was one boat that was rescued after circling sheppey several times

[grendel]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/kent/8648011.stm

[Poppy]

3 hours ago, TheQ said:

No you were  not in the wrong,

 Broads regulation 19,  " but notwithstanding any other provision in these Byelaws the master of a powerdriven or manually propelled or quanted vessel crossing from one side of a channel to the other side or entering a channel from a side dyke or other waterway shall do so at a proper time having regard to any vessels navigating along the channel and shall give way to such vessels."

and fishermen anchoring in  the river,

Regulation 29 (3) Any person fishing from a boat or the bank shall show reasonable consideration to any other person using the navigation area and shall ensure that his rod or line does not obstruct the passage of a vessel along a channel.

 

Regulation 33 (b) The Byelaws concerning lights shall be complied with from sunset to sunrise, and during such times no other lights shall be exhibited, except such lights as cannot be mistaken for the lights specified in these Byelaws or as do not impair their visibility or distinctive character, or interfere with the keeping of a proper look out or with the safe navigation of any other vessel.

Noting the underlined bit, a problem we've had on the 3RR, with people using those high powered torches to look up at sails and generally flash around to look at river banks and other boats, blinding the other boats!!!

So why was there a plonker of a pike angler moored in the middle of Lime kiln dyke a couple of weeks ago, why did he have FOUR rods deployed, on at each corner and why did he object so much when I quite reasonably requested he moved himself?  NO , I wasn't going to move outside the channel! 

I didn't ask if he held two rod licences.....

[TheQ]

Because there are few who bother reading the regulations....

It's a problem we've had very occasionally (rarely?)had on the up river straight from the sailing club, a dozen  Yeomans  and another dozen dinghies wizzing around them gives them the general idea....

I have seen BA inspectors telling anchored fishermen to move out of the main river channel

[JennyMorgan]

Re plonker pike anglers I was sailing along the nav channel on Horsey Mere and picked up an angler's tackle at which I promptly went about so hopefully his tackle would disengage with my keel, which it did. Did he thank me, did he hack, just demanded why was sailing along the side of the Mere when I had all the Broad to sail upon? Well, red rag to a bull but keep calm says me to myself! For a kick off this is the deeper water and the recognised navigation channel, secondly feeding fish are unlikely to be here, they are much more likely to be over there, indicating the far bank onto which both sun and wind were facing, plus it's the North bank, and that was where I was expecting you to be. You have the whole Mere to fish in, why fish here? End of conversation but as I sailed away I  noticed him hauling his mudweights in! 

[ChrisB]

The best phone/tablet map I have found for night ops is Viewranger loaded with The Broads OS 1:25000. But I think it only works on ios an android. 

I also keep a note of a few bearings in case of very thick fog coming down as it did once on me as I entered Barton at the Southern end.