Navigation At Night.

[Bound2Please]

Well at night insure netting boats have no spot lights to find there dan bouys, but the dan bouys fly a black flack that can lways be picked out in the blackness with night vision. Navigating the rivers narrower yes but IMHO  should be navigated in the same way. No head lights............

Charlie

Edited March 12, 2017 by Bound2Please
missed words

[JennyMorgan]

To be brutally honest I feel strongly about this subject and whilst we all have to learn, even I had to, I really do think that if people feel the need to have the headlights on their boat constantly turned on then quite simply they need to gain more experience before casting off in the first place.

Branden, re that spotlight being turned on you at Oulton Broad, I just wonder, out of exasperation if I just might have been tempted, you never know!

[JennyMorgan]

Just a thought, slow down at night, that makes a huge difference as to what you can see !

[JennyMorgan]

11 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

No misjudgement possible Brandenjg, as has been clearly stated everyone can see everything as long as they don't use lights. Come to think of it, maybe hire craft should ONLY go out at night when visibility is so much improved. That ol' sun can really harm your night vision.

 

Hmmm, Sorry Peter, I got a bit carried away there. Suffice to say I disagree with you on this. and to ban such lights would spell the end of night cruising for me as I wouldn't be able to leave my mooring safely.

I have no great wish to either cross swords, or to disagree with you for that matter, but honestly, at the slow speeds on the Broads, if you can't manage without a spot light then I would question whether you should be leaving your moorings at night, but that is for you to judge. I really don't mean to be brutal but you shouldn't need more than a handy torch, just in case. It is a question of safety, massively so and not just yours either. Interestingly the Navigation byelaws are quite clear in regard to the use of bright and confusing lights. You never see wild animals with headlights, why do we humans feel that we can't manage too?

[JennyMorgan]

Perhaps some bright manufacturer will develop low intensity headlights for boats approaching their moorings, just an ambient glow so to speak! I have a dread of the Broads Authority installing street lighting along the river bank, along with double yellow lines, all in the name of safety. I enjoy walking at night, I always have a torch in my pocket, just in case, bit like boating!

[thingamybob]

16 hours ago, SEAMASTER said:

At lunch time in my local watering hole. I was chatting with the usual crowd I drink with and the subject came up of  Night time navigation on the rivers. Wait for it on a hire boat. My reply was no hire boats are fitted with any navigation lights. And not  permitted to to move after sunset. Then one of the crowd piped up and said what if you fitted your own nav lights. I couldn't answer the question to that. Then he showed us on Google a light that he had  purchased and stuck it on a hire boat on the Thames last year. So is this right or wrong. 

Sorry for nit picking but those lights would be illegal fitted to any boat, hire or private, on the Thames. Proper lights, even if temporary should be fitted to the cabin sides or gunnels of an open boat or shrouds if on a sailing boat. The mast head light, I believe must be fitted at least four foot above the side lights. 

[Poppy]

32 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

Perhaps some bright manufacturer will develop low intensity headlights for boats approaching their moorings, just an ambient glow so to speak!

Were they to do so, few would buy them, since they all want halogen searchlights with a minimum of 150 watts.

I'm not  often on the river at night, but can remember a number of occasions when I have had the dubious benefit of a spot light shone directly at me, effectively blinding me.

On one occasion I was going down Upton Dyke. Anybody who knows that narrow channel  will be aware that passing another craft in broad daylight  requires some care and observation.....

[thingamybob]

Just now, Poppy said:

Were they to do so, few would buy them, since they all want halogen searchlights with a minimum of 150 watts.

I'm not  often on the river at night, but can remember a number of occasions when I have had the dubious benefit of a spot light shone directly at me, effectively blinding me.

On one occasion I was going down Upton Dyke. Anybody who knows that narrow channel  will be aware that passing another craft in broad daylight  requires some care and observation.....

Why not just switch the cabin lights on when approaching a mooring. That and the surprising amount of light put out by nav lights should be enough for most purposes.

In saying that, I mean properly fitted nav lights, not ones designed for fitting to the cabin sides which some people turn through 90 degrees and fit to the cabin roof.

[grendel]

I had an australian friend who would mix concrete by starlight out in the bush where he lived, his nearest street lighting was in the local town 15 miles away (1 streetlight outside the pub), if you are used to it and your night sight given time to adjust, then seeing isnt a problem.

[Poppy]

Just now, grendel said:

I had an australian friend who would mix concrete by starlight out in the bush where he lived, his nearest street lighting was in the local town 15 miles away (1 streetlight outside the pub), if you are used to it and your night sight given time to adjust, then seeing isnt a problem.

Good post! 

[MauriceMynah]

Well I might as well carry on   Some of the channel markers on Hickling are buoys rather than posts standing just two to three feet high. These cannot be seen against the skyline ... nor in fact can some of the posts come to that! Barton is similar in this matter but is generally deeper than Hickling so less of an issue.

Some form of lighting is essential where the banks are too far away to be seen and where said banks are not the problem. Where the river is both narrow and tree lined, on a moonless overcast night you will not be able to see the edges without lights. To cruise without being able to see is... shall we say... unwise. 

Where and when one can do without lights I sometimes do, but I'd hate to try it going up Lime Kiln Dyke to the White Horse... or worse, back from there!

[Jim]

1 hour ago, Poppy said:

Were they to do so, few would buy them, since they all want halogen searchlights with a minimum of 150 watts.

I'm not  often on the river at night, but can remember a number of occasions when I have had the dubious benefit of a spot light shone directly at me, effectively blinding me.

On one occasion I was going down Upton Dyke. Anybody who knows that narrow channel  will be aware that passing another craft in broad daylight  requires some care and observation.....

A local friend used to moor in the Solent and owned a rather large sea going boat.  When he sold it, he gave me a high power flood/searchlight.  It is safely tucked away for future use elsewhere and is nowhere near our boat, nor will it ever be!!

Good point about viewing through glass.  I had the canopy off when night cruising so the best view was available.  If however, I had remembered our trackplotter which was switched on, life could have been a whole lot easier...oops!

[ScrumpyCheddar]

Very interesting thread ....Let's just say...... What would happen then in the busy summer time your trying to find a mooring and there all full and your running out of Day light..???

I know must of us would of found mooring earlier but what if....???

Where would you stand and that...???

[Poppy]

Just now, ScrumpyCheddar said:

Very interesting thread ....Let's just say...... What would happen then in the busy summer time your trying to find a mooring and there all full and your running out of Day light..???

I know must of us would of found mooring earlier but what if....???

Where would you stand and that...???

Well, I'd pull into the bank and drop a mud weight or put out a couple of rhond hooks. Of course, there'd be no electricity ......

[ranworthbreeze]

9 minutes ago, Poppy said:

Well, I'd pull into the bank and drop a mud weight or put out a couple of rhond hooks. Of course, there'd be no electricity ......

Hi Poppy,

Maybe not on Breydon

Regards

Alan

[Poppy]

Just now, ranworthbreeze said:

Hi Poppy,

Maybe not on Breydon

Regards

Alan

Bit daft to have gone that far - from either end - but it happens

[JawsOrca]

Sorry to disagree again.. I have the right to navigate after dark.. It allows us to enjoy our boats all times of the year, often we are the only people out there when other boats are abandoned for the winter. I can't lower the screen nor stick my head out the side window due to the designs. I don't need anyone panicing and screaming directions at me.  The boat is equipped with all equipment needed for safe passage and insured to do. I navigate on tickover and use the spotlights when I need to. I am not endangering anyone and I am within my comfort zone. I have enough experience to never endanger anyone including other rivers but my spotlight is an important piece of kit and if anything it will only get brighter.

[Poppy]

By shining your spotlight 'to see what's coming' you are potentially endangering others who are relying quite properly on their well developed night vision.

[JawsOrca]

As I mentioned poppy, I only use when I need to which certainly isn't when others are around. 

[Vaughan]

4 hours ago, thingamybob said:

21 hours ago, SEAMASTER said:

Sorry for nit picking but those lights would be illegal fitted to any boat, hire or private, on the Thames. Proper lights, even if temporary should be fitted to the cabin sides or gunnels of an open boat or shrouds if on a sailing boat. The mast head light, I believe must be fitted at least four foot above the side lights. 

You are quite right! This is the sort of nonsense that can be bought as a tourist souvenir on the cheaper stands at boat shows, but bears little relation to the Rule of the Road.

The red and green lights used to be called a "combined lantern" and could be carried on boats of under 50ft, including sailing craft.

The red and green lights are "navigation" lights which indicate that you are "under way". The white light (if on the same arcs as the nav lights) is a "steaming light" and indicates that you are a power driven vessel, under 150ft in length. If you are under sail, you only show the nav lights.

An all round white light is an anchor light, and is not shown at the same time as the nav lights as, if you are anchored, you are not under way!

An anchor light is not a masthead light. It is worn in the forepart of the vessel. On a yacht, it would be about a third of the way up the forestay.

What is missing from the  above is the stern light, which must be shown in the aft of all vessels when under way.

[Speleologist]

1 hour ago, Vaughan said:

What is missing from the  above is the stern light, which must be shown in the aft of all vessels when under way.

Looking at this it seems that it would be legal on a vessel of under 12m provided the lights met the required specification (visible at 1 mile). From the Navigation Byelaws:

Quote

the master of a power-driven vessel less than 12 metres

(39 feet 4 inches) in length may cause to be exhibited in lieu

of the lights prescribed in paragraph (1) an all-round white

light and sidelights

It looks as if the white light in the picture is all round.

For use at sea it would also have to meet the requirements for arc of visibility and for colour specification. (These are strangely not defined in the byelaws). It would also have to be positioned where the boat structure did not interfere with the visibility.

[Speleologist]

Referring to the effects of a bright light, or spotlight, the MAIB report into the loss of the sailing yacht Ouzo provides salutory reading. A statement in ot from the Institute of Opthalmology identifies that it takes 20-30 minutes to gain full night vision after exposure to light. This not only means light from others' spotlights, but also light from going below in your own boat. If cruising at night it is sensible to have a red light for the saloon to avoid this problem.

[Vaughan]

Just now, Speleologist said:

This not only means light from others' spotlights, but also light from going below in your own boat. If cruising at night it is sensible to have a red light for the saloon to avoid this problem.

How true.

[TheQ]

I've sailed many times at night in the 3 Rivers Races, and a couple of times in a motor cruiser. you don't need lights to see where you are going, you just need dim nav lights, too bright and they shine out like a multicoloured search light. Never have the cabin lights on in a motor cruiser.

The little battery nav lights i can see from one end of Hickling broad to the other. We watch the boats coming  across  the broad from the other end, knowing which way they are tacking quite easily.

As for the Hickling telegraph poles, the only time I've had a problem was one 3 Rivers race where the fog was so thick you couldn't see one pole to the next.

[Vaughan]

16 minutes ago, Speleologist said:

Looking at this it seems that it would be legal on a vessel of under 12m provided the lights met the required specification (visible at 1 mile). From the Navigation Byelaws:

In my opinion the steaming light and the sternlight cannot be combined into one all round white light, since it is unlikely that just one light would be visible all round in reality. This is why the stern light is placed  on the aft of the vessel to give it a clear arc. The stern light is very important, since it shows on its own from behind. So if you see one white light at sea, you know you are looking at a vessel stern on. You can therefore assume you are overtaking it, so you must assume you have to give way. It is a "fail safe" system, if you like.

The other point is that a sailing boat would not be showing a steaming light, only a stern light, so an all round white light is not appropriate.