Radio Norfolk Now

[RumPunch]

Talking about speeding boats

[Poppy]

About moored boats being 'washed' by speeders etc. We were out on the Bure between Upton and St Bennets on Sunday and plenty were obviously speeding - If you have ' a bone in your teeth , and the makings of a rooster tail with the tide and current WITH you, definitely you are speeding ! 

Both private and hire boats were observed in this mode !

Apparently 400 notices for speeding have been issued by BA rangers this year......

[Poppy]

That should be 400 notices over the last THREE years.

Still a hell of a lot, consdering how thin on the ground the rangers are now.

[marshman]

A perennial issue - I too was moored on the Bure in that area on Friday. Yes there was speeding by some boats but it was no better, and no worse than previously. There has always been some who speed, for as long as I can remember, and far more who keep, more or less, within limits. On balance I think perhaps its less than many years ago.

Lets hope that only some of those notices actually get to court, as the Nav account would be hard pushed to cover the prosecution costs - shame IMHO that Radio Norfolk cannot find a more interesting topic to discuss really!!

[vanessan]

It’s when some moron does it deliberately ‘as a laugh’ and it becomes dangerous. As in a couple of incidents in June/July on the Yare. No joke when you become involved. 

[vanessan]

I wish I could have heard that article on Radio Norfolk, it would be interesting to know what prompted it. Anything in particular or are they short of articles to report on?

[BroadsAuthority]

41 minutes ago, vanessan said:

I wish I could have heard that article on Radio Norfolk, it would be interesting to know what prompted it. Anything in particular or are they short of articles to report on?

Hi Vanessan,

You can listen to the piece on the Radio Norfolk website here, although it is split up over the course of a few hours - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p07kdt7x

We aren't sure what specifically prompted the piece either, we were approached last week to provide comment/statistics and to take part in an interview.

As marshman mentioned above, speeding is an issue that's been around as long as the Broads have been a popular visitor destination and isn't exactly a new problem. We do receive a significant number of reports, some of which include evidence and information that is extremely useful. However, many of the speeding reports are too vague or do not include sufficient evidence that would help us take further action.

Tom

[vanessan]

28 minutes ago, BroadsAuthority said:

As marshman mentioned above, speeding is an issue that's been around as long as the Broads have been a popular visitor destination and isn't exactly a new problem. We do receive a significant number of reports, some of which include evidence and information that is extremely useful. However, many of the speeding reports are too vague or do not include sufficient evidence that would help us take further action.

How true Tom. My advice to any boater would be to keep a camera handy for these incidents. The really serious ones I would think are few and far between but if good evidence can be produced it must be helpful. Thank you for the Radio Norfolk details, I will try and catch up with that. 

[CambridgeCabby]

Whilst I would never be one to condone speeding IMHO there is a huge difference between speeding and excessive speed , I doubt there are many amongst us stinkies that can claim to never have crept over the set limits unintentionally .

There are times when travelling against the tide that doing 4 on the Ant is excessive as signified by the wake left behind , in such instances I can frequently be found to be travelling at far below the 4mph limit , conversely when with the current it is difficult to keep much below 4.5 or even 5mph yet leaving little discernable wake.

It is the boats punching the tide , at high revs and more often than not fellow privateers that need to be spoken to , last weekend one such boat (a rather nice woody)was travelling at a good 5 or 6 against the current and the resulting wake was one I would most certainly regard as excessive and it caused the wild moored boats to rock bordering on violently.

And no I didn’t report it as had no photographic evidence but I will certainly mention it to them (politely) if I meet them ashore .

[Poppy]

1 minute ago, CambridgeCabby said:

Whilst I would never be one to condone speeding IMHO there is a huge difference between speeding and excessive speed , I doubt there are many amongst us stinkies that can claim to never have crept over the set limits unintentionally .

There are times when travelling against the tide that doing 4 on the Ant is excessive as signified by the wake left behind ,  .

When they are travelling WITH the tide and creating a considerable wash thwere is NO room for argument - they are going far too fast. 

Still, got to make it to the next pub while there may still be a mooring I suppose.  Maybe the answer is more pubs with moorings outside

[StillCruising]

CC.

Funny that you should mention the Ant. We spent the a lot of last week moored under trees to keep cool (no doubt you saw us) and I was pleasantly supplied by the in the main sedate speed of the passing boats both private and hire alike. Day boats by their nature do create a fair old wash even at low speed so you expect to see / feel it. The only real excessive speed / wash incident was a large H W cruiser that you could hear a long way off and the wash slammed into us with enough force to spill our drinks off the table. By the time I had got topside to remonstrate when I heard his revs drop after being shouted at by a moored boat just up river on the other side.  

[Bytheriver]

How about someone organising a bulk purchase & installation service to install suitable  GPS equipment in both private & hire boats which would solve the problem especially for craft with rev counters indicating a supposed speed?

 

[Poppy]

1 minute ago, Bytheriver said:

How about someone organising a bulk purchase & installation service to install suitable  GPS equipment in both private & hire boats which would solve the problem especially for craft with rev counters indicating a supposed speed?

 

'Suitable GPS equipment' isn't what's required - except for the visually impared perhaps. 

All that's needed is the goo old Mk 1 eyeball ! Keep an eye behind you. If you can see a significant wash YOU ARE GOING TOO FAST ! 

And there will be no situation ( on the Broads) when the throttle lever needs to be 'on the stop' !

[marshman]

Do speedos etc in cars stop speeding??

I don't think so....!!!!

[SPEEDTRIPLE]

Some really strange ideas on this thread, I thought we were all about enjoying ourselves on the Broads, not having to do things other people's way, because that's what THEY say we should be enjoying ourselves. 

Are we now only allowed to go WITH the tide for fear of a ripple, are we supposed to ditch the speedo in favour of a new was measuring device?, the list goes on. All you will do is drive people away, then who or what would you have to complain about?. Oh I know, the dramatic increase in river tolls because of the dramatic decrease in the number of boats. 

[vanessan]

1 hour ago, SPEEDTRIPLE said:

Some really strange ideas on this thread, I thought we were all about enjoying ourselves on the Broads, not having to do things other people's way, because that's what THEY say we should be enjoying ourselves. 

Are we now only allowed to go WITH the tide for fear of a ripple, are we supposed to ditch the speedo in favour of a new was measuring device?, the list goes on. All you will do is drive people away, then who or what would you have to complain about?. Oh I know, the dramatic increase in river tolls because of the dramatic decrease in the number of boats. 

I think maybe you have misinterpreted some of the comments ST. Only one suggestion has been put forward (that of ‘suitable GPS’ being installed in boats) and it has been pointed out that speed itself is not the problem. I can’t see anywhere where it has been suggested that boats should only be allowed to go with the tide or speedos (not the swimming trunk variety) should be ditched! This is a debate on boats that cause unnecessary inconvenience to others, admittedly a debate that rears its head fairly regularly. 

[Coryton]

2 hours ago, Poppy said:

'Suitable GPS equipment' isn't what's required - except for the visually impared perhaps. 

All that's needed is the goo old Mk 1 eyeball ! Keep an eye behind you. If you can see a significant wash YOU ARE GOING TOO FAST ! 

Some boat designs make it easier to see what's behind you than others.

And if my experience is anything to go by, when hiring a boat you are given no warning to watch your wash, or any way of knowing what counts as a 'significant' wash. Of course there is a warning in the skippers' manual, and everyone diligently reads through them, don't they?

I agree that ground speed isn't everything, but I don't think GPS speedometers do any harm. 

If we had gone by the rev counter we would have had a very strange view of our speed, no matter which of the two different sets of numbers given at the helm we chose.

After all the different speed limits across the Broads are given in mph, not wash levels.

[CambridgeCabby]

4 hours ago, StillCruising said:

CC.

Funny that you should mention the Ant. We spent the a lot of last week moored under trees to keep cool (no doubt you saw us) and I was pleasantly supplied by the in the main sedate speed of the passing boats both private and hire alike. Day boats by their nature do create a fair old wash even at low speed so you expect to see / feel it. The only real excessive speed / wash incident was a large H W cruiser that you could hear a long way off and the wash slammed into us with enough force to spill our drinks off the table. By the time I had got topside to remonstrate when I heard his revs drop after being shouted at by a moored boat just up river on the other side.  

The speed I was going I would have missed you , oooops !!!!

seriously though I think I did spot you if your avatar is your boat 

[vanessan]

47 minutes ago, Coryton said:

And if my experience is anything to go by, when hiring a boat you are given no warning to watch your wash, or any way of knowing what counts as a 'significant' wash. Of course there is a warning in the skippers' manual, and everyone diligently reads through them, don't they?

Hit the nail firmly on the head there I think! I have no idea what the handover instructions include these days but it should be part of them surely? It wouldn’t really take too long to explain to a customer that waves breaking over river banks or rocking moored boats should be avoided would it? 🤔

[Coryton]

54 minutes ago, vanessan said:

Hit the nail firmly on the head there I think! I have no idea what the handover instructions include these days but it should be part of them surely? It wouldn’t really take too long to explain to a customer that waves breaking over river banks or rocking moored boats should be avoided would it? 🤔

You wouldn't think...

The skippers' manual we had was in a few places a masterpiece of vagueness.

Don't moor in the "lower reaches of rivers, where the current is very strong and the rise and fall of the tide is very large".

Where are the "lower reaches?" 

"Watch your wash, especially when passing moored craft."

Watch for what? What shouldn't it be doing? (And for the really inexperienced, come to think of it, what does "your wash" mean?) 

Elsewhere under Byelaws it says "Don't make waves" which is perhaps a little more useful but not much.

"Life Jackets are provided for each member of your party. Make sure that they fit properly and make sure that they wear them AT ALL TIMES."

In bed? OK I'm being a bit facetious but instructions like that aren't terribly helpful.

"Always reduce speed when approaching a bridge"

Doesn't that depend what speed you were going before? Reduce to what?

I'm being unfair because manuals are not easy to write, it is comprehensive and has a lot of very useful information in.

But it could be better in places.

Some pictures of what your wash shouldn't look like would be very helpful.

[SPEEDTRIPLE]

We`ve had loads of dicussions on this subject already.

Now i`m at home, i have plenty of time to write a proper opinion. If you`re punching the tide, you can be going at 6 mph over the water to reach 4 mph over  land, but we`re always being told about speeding boats and leaving a large wash, so is the speed limit more important than the wash, or is the wash more important than the speed?. If going WITH the tide, and the tide through Gt Yarmouth is running at 4 mph +, do you go through in reverse so as not to break the overland speed limit?, how ridiculous that would be.  

Ok, so different boats leave a different wash pattern, Lightning causes very little wash even at 6 mph, whereas the so called wash friendly Hydraflow hull leaves a considerably bigger wash at the same speed, so, do we ban them, or say they`re not allowed to go as fast as other designs?.

This is always going to be an ongoing arguement, but the simplest way to combat the issue is to go BACK to the long established method of measuring speed over the surface of the water, simple and easy to watch for wash.  It may not be perfect, but it`s far simpler than this ridiculous speed over land system which DOES encourage going so fast against the tide but not breaking the speed limit, and causing a huge amount of wash.

Something else to consider is the effect of wind and when it gusts, do you continuously speed up and slow down for every gust of wind that makes you speed up or slow down?. 

Boats have always, and WILL always create wash, get over it.

[KaptinKev]

Personally I think I might be one of the only one on the broads that love it when a boat passes by full steam ahead, with a nice rocking on the boat that is the pleasure that is being on the broads. Also at night when you get a slapping on the hull from the gentle waves is also for me a love of being on the Norfolk Broads.

But I appreciate you will get a few sticklers on the broads that if their cup of tea has ripples in it because of a passing boat, then all I can say is that you need to visit a river system where you are the only one.

If the BA was that much worried about wash affecting the river side, they would of done something more about it concerning boat users, but they haven't. Basically the odd boat breaking speed limits compared to the ones that don't, percentage wise it is not worth pursuing!

[Coryton]

23 minutes ago, KaptinKev said:

Personally I think I might be one of the only one on the broads that love it when a boat passes by full steam ahead, with a nice rocking on the boat that is the pleasure that is being on the broads. Also at night when you get a slapping on the hull from the gentle waves is also for me a love of being on the Norfolk Broads.

No, you're not.

Something that surprised me on my first boating holiday was how stable the boat was most of the time - it was as if it was somehow running on rails.

Of course there were exceptions - fast boats going past (no speeds limits on most of the Lough Erne system) and being on the lower Lough on a windy day - that was less a nice rocking and more like being at sea.

 

[PaulM]

My son insists that if a big boat comes the other way I let him know as he will head to the bow to feel the waves hitting the hull. 

I use a GPS to help judge my speed but always consider my wash. It’s about the most practical, reliable solution. I’ve never been asked to slow down before.

 

[Meantime]

While the speed over land system may not be perfect, have any of the speed through waters advocates given any thought to how the BA would police that?

It is far easier for the hire yards to say you should be going at walking pace. Most people now have devices that can use GPS to measure speed over ground. The BA can use speed over ground detection methods from a boat, or from moorings.

OK it's not perfect as has been pointed out when going against a strong tide, but lets be honest here. The strongest tides are on the lower reaches, mainly around Great Yarmouth where all the official advice is to go through at slack water. If you ignore that advice for any reason and find yourself going against a strong tide then you should do so with a low speed over ground so as to avoid excessive wash.

Something else for the speed through water advocates to consider. If the tide rushing through Yarmouth is 4mph, and the speed limit there is 5mph, someone using speed through water could legally be doing up to 9mph over ground if speed through water was the way of measuring. I don't think I would want to be hit by a boat doing 9mph over ground! if I was stationary and moored up. At least speed over ground ensures any collision with stationary objects should be less damaging.

Purely for safety grounds alone, speed over ground is far safer than speed through water. For those that do insist on punching the tide on the lower reaches, then if you've got it wrong, you just have to accept it's your fault and make slow progress rather than using more revs. Remember as well as the speed byelaws, there are byelaws for excessive wash. Being within the speed limit is no defence for causing excessive wash.