dnks34 Posted October 21, 2020 Share Posted October 21, 2020 Dare I suggest this could just be a battery issue. The batteries may not be holding enough of a charge and the yard are reluctant to replace them at this stage of the game. The alternator must be charging a battery somewhere or I don’t imagine the engine would be starting very well either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
750XL Posted October 21, 2020 Share Posted October 21, 2020 8 minutes ago, dnks34 said: Dare I suggest this could just be a battery issue. The batteries may not be holding enough of a charge and the yard are reluctant to replace them at this stage of the game. The alternator must be charging a battery somewhere or I don’t imagine the engine would be starting very well either. There was certainly a small amount of charge going back into the batteries, just nothing to sustain more than 2 minutes of cooking. Was led to believe there’s 14 batteries fitted to the boat, and a dead cell etc in one of them could’ve goosed the whole system. Engine and heating started like a dream every morning, so assume it was on a different battery system . It’ll be a lovely boat once the issues are sorted and it’s given a bit of TLC of the winter. Though interestingly I see it’s no longer bookable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorfolkNog Posted October 21, 2020 Share Posted October 21, 2020 14 batteries. Good grief. No wonder they don't want to replace them. The title of this thread says it all I think! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
750XL Posted October 21, 2020 Share Posted October 21, 2020 Just now, NorfolkNog said: 14 batteries. Good grief. No wonder they don't want to replace them. The title of this thread says it all I think! That’s what I was told, but I could be wrong. I’m sure someone will correct me if so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorfolkNog Posted October 21, 2020 Share Posted October 21, 2020 Sounds quite feasible if they have all that cooking to do! I'm sure it will be right. I don't know how much batteries cost but you must be looking at a grand I would have thought. Why go to all that trouble? Baffling (but then I am a simple soul) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annv Posted October 21, 2020 Share Posted October 21, 2020 They won't all be on the same bank, now you're explaining a lot more, engine starting bank ok? heating bank ok? fridge bank ok? lights i guess ok? so only invertia bank us! yes, what exactly did and didn't work, tv, winch, water pump, shower etc John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dnks34 Posted October 21, 2020 Share Posted October 21, 2020 20 minutes ago, 750XL said: There was certainly a small amount of charge going back into the batteries, just nothing to sustain more than 2 minutes of cooking. Not even enough time to do a pot noodle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
750XL Posted October 21, 2020 Share Posted October 21, 2020 15 minutes ago, annv said: They won't all be on the same bank, now you're explaining a lot more, engine starting bank ok? heating bank ok? fridge bank ok? lights i guess ok? so only invertia bank us! yes, what exactly did and didn't work, tv, winch, water pump, shower etc John Engine, heating and lights worked fine without issue (lovely well fitted out LED strip lighting may I add!). Assume bilge pump was fine also as we didn’t sink :) Shower box, toilet, plug sockets, fridge, kettle, toaster, microwave, oven and hob not so okay without shore power! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaughan Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 11 hours ago, dnks34 said: The alternator must be charging a battery somewhere or I don’t imagine the engine would be starting very well either. In the photo we are discussing, the fast fuse is on the domestic feed from the charge splitter. So if that blew, the alternator would still be charging the starter battery. I wonder? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 18 hours ago, annv said: Hi Cal in which case you haven't got a combined charger/inverter which is safer and a lot less money two items takes up more space, more wiring, boat yard would go for combined one, safer/less money/less space. John No we have separate units which we are happy with. if either breaks we replace that one part rather than both. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldgregg Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 14 hours ago, Vaughan said: There is an old principle of physics : If you want energy, you have always got to pay for it. A 90 amp alternator takes just under 5 horsepower off an engine. So fitting 2 of them, to power all the domestics, takes 10 HP off what is only a 40 HP engine in the first place! So you fit a big turbo engine to still give you shaft horsepower and also feed the electric supply to the galley. And then think about the extra fuel consumption. I do think that given the amount of running people do, fitting a bigger engine with two monstrous alternators is mostly going to be the answer? You can fit a million different battery monitors, tell people to do lots of running, always use shore power when they can etc etc but they ultimately think it's not all that important and just do what they want to do. You've seen it in hire and I've seen it in syndicate. I remember discussing this same problem with the electrician who rewired Thunder and he was convinced a single alternator was sufficient. It wasn't, as I said at the time. I think the solution is to remove the problem from the end user - Make sure the boat is as power efficient as possible (all LED lighting etc), have decent batteries and ensure there is more than enough charging capacity so that even three hours running will give them a reasonable charge, but still insist on 4 hours minimum in handovers. Then ensure people cannot plug in electric heaters, kettles and toasters on the inverter etc by using non-standard plugs and sockets on the TV, microwave and whatever else requires it. Give them USB ports for charging phones and laptops, and fit shore power with a ring and tell them they need to plug in if they want 240V (which also just happens to run the mains battery charger). The boat will use more fuel in a week, but the yards sell fuel so that's not going to be a biggie for them and people will get used to the extra (we're probably only talking 30%?) cost. Not having to replace batteries at the quayside so frequently will also bring down the operating cost anyway. We've all seen the boatyard vans in the summer with an engineer wheeling a sackbarrow loaded up with lead-acid lumps along the rhond. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annv Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 I would expect it to have two alternators 60 amp for starter and 180 amp as current practice with split charging to three banks engine , heating and domestic cant work out it having 14 batteries would expect two 110 amp heating one 100 amp starting and bilge pump winch two for fridge and four for everything else=nine or another four for inverta = cooker hob microwave,it's not normally good practice to have more than four batteries in a bank there is evidence that any more fight each other, this doesn't refer to 2.2 volt cells or 24 volt series/parallel banks, with this amount of batteries if true they won't all be in one box in middle of keel as it would have a stability problems so probably pigeon holed down each side of hull with corresponding maintenance issues. or is it a 24 volt system giving severn set's 1=2&4. don't suppose you can get a definitive answer from boatyard?. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaughan Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 1 hour ago, oldgregg said: I think the solution is to remove the problem from the end user This amounts to the old saying : Whatever you fit on a hire boat - it has to be HIRER PROOF! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JennyMorgan Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 3 minutes ago, Vaughan said: Whatever you fit on a hire boat - it has to be HIRER PROOF! Presumably on a private boat it has to be idiot proof, just in case !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldgregg Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 3 minutes ago, annv said: I would expect it to have two alternators 60 amp for starter and 180 amp as current practice with split charging to three banks engine , heating and domestic cant work out it having 14 batteries would expect two 110 amp heating one 100 amp starting and bilge pump winch two for fridge and four for everything else=nine or another four for inverta = cooker hob microwave,it's not normally good practice to have more than four batteries in a bank there is evidence that any more fight each other, this doesn't refer to 2.2 volt cells or 24 volt series/parallel banks, with this amount of batteries if true they won't all be in one box in middle of keel as it would have a stability problems so probably pigeon holed down each side of hull with corresponding maintenance issues. or is it a 24 volt system giving severn set's 1=2&4. don't suppose you can get a definitive answer from boatyard?. John I can't think of a hireboat with a 24V system. They'll be 12V, often with just three 120Ah domestic and one engine battery charged through an argofet to handle demand. A lot of boats have a single alternator, but if they have an inverter there may be another and another couple of batteries on a separate bank. I tend to look under the hatches on everything I hire, but I know most don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annv Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 Yes! but as it has electric cooking 24 volt would make more sense it would half the wiring diameter and make wiring simperler and more economical. John 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldgregg Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 Yeah, actually I have seen some Brinks stuff with a 24V system and an enormous inverter tucked away behind the sofa (I mean I had to look, right?). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annv Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 No Peter just user friendly, big boys just love big toys. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaughan Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 33 minutes ago, annv said: Yes! but as it has electric cooking 24 volt would make more sense it would half the wiring diameter and make wiring simperler and more economical. John You are right, and I know a big company in France who run a lot of their boats on 24 volts, but it doesn't work. The problem is this : If you wire two batteries in parallel, you double the amp/hours capacity. If you wire two batteries in series, you only double the voltage, but not the capacity. 24 volts is for when you want "cold cranking amps", to turn over a big 6 cylinder diesel in a truck. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
750XL Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 Not technically minded enough to understand it but wish I’d taken a photo under the hatches, just for interest of those clever minds like annv. You’re correct in saying the batteries weren’t all together though, only ones I noticed was a bank of 4 under the sofa. Presume there was also some (or all remaining) under the bed, as this is where the inverter and master switches were Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dnks34 Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 That suggests to me that the remaining 10 of the 14 are feeding the inverter. There must be a fairly hefty alternator to charge that little lot. An engineer once told me you could also connect an inverter directly to the Alternator output. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annv Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 Hi Vaughan But in series parallel eight batteries for 24 volts X 440 amps for inverter, it then leaves six batteries 1 for starter one for winch at front than four in series for domestic lights, pump , heater, tv at 12 volts two alternators one 24v and one 12v all at 180 amps each or both 24 volt with split charging although a lot of horsepower they wouldn't be charging at full rate/horsepower all the time only when fully discharged with 240 shore power on occasions, and does t have solar panel's? i do think lot of trouble just to remove the gas cooking But everybody trying their best to go electric and save the planet so can't knock it for trying BUT! it must be reliable.I do think a whisper generator, electric drive on traction batteries all at 24v or 48 volts is much better way of doing it along with gas cooking only trouble is traction battery are rather tall so could be difficult to fit in small boat that's what i will have in next boat, not cheap but very low maintenance and low ongoing costs and very user friendly. John 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldgregg Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 Forklift batteries are still pretty old tech - The energy density of something like a Tesla battery pack is several times that of a traction pack. A 100ah Tesla pack and a fuel cell would be a game changer. But the cost would be VERY high. Those 'whisper quiet' generators are generally very loud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroadAmbition Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 Those 'whisper quiet' generators are generally very loud. You're not wrong, especially when one is moored right next you at Salhouse Broad through to after 2000 after all river traffic has ceased for the day and at 0700 in the morning Griff 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaughan Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 9 hours ago, annv said: Hi Vaughan But in series parallel eight batteries for 24 volts X 440 amps for inverter, it then leaves six batteries 1 for starter one for winch at front than four in series for domestic lights, pump , heater, tv at 12 volts two alternators one 24v and one 12v all at 180 amps each or both 24 volt with split charging although a lot of horsepower they wouldn't be charging at full rate/horsepower all the time only when fully discharged with 240 shore power on occasions, and does t have solar panel's? i do think lot of trouble just to remove the gas cooking But everybody trying their best to go electric and save the planet so can't knock it for trying BUT! it must be reliable.I do think a whisper generator, electric drive on traction batteries all at 24v or 48 volts is much better way of doing it along with gas cooking only trouble is traction battery are rather tall so could be difficult to fit in small boat that's what i will have in next boat, not cheap but very low maintenance and low ongoing costs and very user friendly. John Excuse me for not reading this until this morning - I was a bit busy last night! Answer is yes, you are quite right and I have seen one or two systems like this on French canal hire boats - at the luxury end of the market! I have also run boats with a Peachment 2.5 KW hydraulic generator on 220V, to power three aircon units while cruising. When moored, you plug the aircon into the bank. They also had dual purpose electric/gas cooking hobs and a microwave, all run by the generator. These though, were Crown built boats I was running in the U.S. for Crown Blue Line, On the Erie Canal and in Florida. I still don't think it is suitable for Broads boats! Technically, all these things can be done and I have seen them done, but it comes at a price, and I don't think it is worth it, on a Broads hire boat. At the moment, I have no doubt that the only sensible way to cook on a boat is with gas. People seem to be worried about safety with gas but I am not! If the pipework and appliances are installed according to BSS the likelihood of a gas leak is negligible and you would very soon smell it. If the burner is burning with a blue flame, with no yellow in it, then it is NOT putting CO into the boat, no matter what some may fear. If the boat has proper fixed ventilation in living spaces (which every hire boat has, by law) then CO2 is not a problem either. Incidentally, gas fridges do not cause explosions. Not on their own. The naked flame of the pilot light, low down on the galley floor, may be the ignition source of an explosion caused by something else, usually petrol vapour, in the old days. I have been revising the BSS for private boats recently and it doesn't actually say you cannot have a gas fridge on your boat. It just says that it must be manufactured as a fully room-sealed unit, if your boat has a petrol engine. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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