Racism And The Colston Statue

[Tempest]

Queen Victoria's Statue in Leeds

This has gone way beyond racism and is now more about mob rule

[MauriceMynah]

If people think that removing statues of the likes of Nelson in Trafalgar Square, will improve their cause , I suspect they will be terribly disappointed, and, I fear, will cause a backlash.

I hear things like "he represented 'white supremacy' " where in fact he represents the naval supremacy of the day. I know little (at the moment) of Cecil Rhodes so apart from founding Rhodesia, what did he do that was so wrong IN THOSE DAYS?

If this is just another case of "White Supremacy" then again it should be remembered that in those days, right or wrong, it was the case.

My next question is not only impossible to answer, but,  if read in the wrong spirit,  would be thought highly racist.

What would be the situation for black people have been if slavery had been abolished in Roman times and that Empire building had never happened? That is, after all, the Utopian wish of those who protest for equality.  

5 minutes ago, batrabill said:

If you can’t detect how offensive it is for a black person to walk past a statue of a slave trader every day you are probably white. 

If that statue is there BECAUSE the person was a slave trader, then yes, massively offensive

If the statue  was made for something else, but the subject was a significant slave trader then slightly less so.

But if the statue was made for some major achievement but the subject had minor links to slavery, then I would say, questionable!

If the world turned Vegan and meat eating became illegal. How many statues would have to be removed?

[grendel]

that is just vandalism, nothing to do with lawful protest

[rightsaidfred]

Maybe all these people desecrating statues etc could do with a history lesson, yes it was the white traders who transported the slaves but it was mainly the Ashanti tribe along with other African tribes and Arab slavers who provided them in the first place, I havn`t heard any reporting or condemnation of this aspect of the trade but then that wouldn`t fit the agenda.

Fred

[Vaughan]

12 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

What would be the situation for black people have been if slavery had been abolished in Roman times and that Empire building had never happened? That is, after all, the Utopian wish of those who protest for equality. 

You beat me to it!

I read somewhere that they reckon there are now more people of Irish descent in America than there are in Ireland.  But their forefathers were not transported there as slaves : they "crossed the Pond" looking for a better life in hard times of famine and blight.  So what would have happened if the native black Africans had not been sold as slaves and had remained living in Africa?

Would they, by now, have also crossed the seas looking for a better life and would they not, by now, be forming the same large proportion of "western" society?

In which case, who would we be blaming now, for the same level of present day racism?

[batrabill]

Frankly this just sounds like a bunch of white middle aged men endlessly saying “why is everyone making such a fuss about racism”?

 

You’re just refusing to accept that there is a problem, which funnily enough means, yes you ARE the problem. 
 

 

[Vaughan]

1 minute ago, batrabill said:

You’re just refusing to accept that there is a problem,

Not in the least! I am simply trying to analyse where it all comes from.

In particular because this has now been turned by rent-a-mob into a historical anti slavery rally. What about all the other racism against other ethnic minorities such as the Chinese, the Pakistanis or the Muslims? Did they come here as slaves?

[batrabill]

Whatabout.....

Slavery is bad.
 

Please feel free to argue with that. 

 

Racism of all kinds is bad. 
 

Please feel free to argue with that. 
 

Slavery as practiced by our nation was inherently racist. It was allowed because the slaves were seen as inferior human beings. 
 

Putting up monuments to people whose business was slavery would be seen as insane now. 
 

Read this for a little more nuance

https://www.brh.org.uk/site/articles/myths-within-myths/

[rightsaidfred]

9 minutes ago, batrabill said:

Frankly this just sounds like a bunch of white middle aged men endlessly saying “why is everyone making such a fuss about racism”?

 

You’re just refusing to accept that there is a problem, which funnily enough means, yes you ARE the problem. 
 

 

Nobody has denied there is a problem, the difference is that most people accept there are two sides to every argument and that blindly following one side will only cause bigger issues for everyone.

Fred

[batrabill]

Read back, it’s a catalogue of people coming up with Whatabout arguments. You don’t get it. 

[Vaughan]

5 minutes ago, batrabill said:

Slavery is bad.
 

Please feel free to argue with that. 

 

Racism of all kinds is bad. 
 

Please feel free to argue with that. 
 

Slavery as practiced by our nation was inherently racist. It was allowed because the slaves were seen as inferior human beings. 
 

Have I argued with any of that?

In any case, historic slavery is not the point. The mindless rioting and blind hatred which is now out of control on our streets, is the point.

The reason for it, is what people like me are objective enough to try and discover.

[batrabill]

I will tell the people I know who marched at the weekend they were mindlessly rioting and filled with blind hatred. My niece will be amused that she took her 4 year old and 2 year old for a bit of mindless rioting. 
 

You don’t see it do you? You don’t even know anyone who is offended by the statue of a slave trader, do you? 
 

But you all feel qualified to comment. 

[Poppy]

I'll tell my mixed race grandson too.

[grendel]

8 minutes ago, batrabill said:

Read back, it’s a catalogue of people coming up with Whatabout arguments. You don’t get it. 

or just someone posing new questions without answering the ones that have been put to them, are you training to be a politician?

[grendel]

3 minutes ago, batrabill said:

I will tell the people I know who marched at the weekend they were mindlessly rioting and filled with blind hatred. My niece will be amused that she took her 4 year old and 2 year old for a bit of mindless rioting. 
 

You don’t see it do you? You don’t even know anyone who is offended by the statue of a slave trader, do you? 
 

But you all feel qualified to comment. 

but it wasnt the protesters causing the trouble, I think we have established that it was the rent a mob who attend any protest whatever the cause who do the rioting and perpetrate the mindless hatred, they only attend to cause trouble, the vast majority of the protesters who attend are not there to cause trouble, just that small minority.

[MauriceMynah]

Batrabill.

37 minutes ago, batrabill said:

Frankly this just sounds like a bunch of white middle aged men endlessly saying “why is everyone making such a fuss about racism”?

 

You’re just refusing to accept that there is a problem, which funnily enough means, yes you ARE the problem. 
 

 

So, Apart from moaning about us and telling us that we are the problem, What should be done to stop racism?

[grendel]

Bricks get thrown at the police, does the average protester think, ooh i must pack a brick in my handbag (rucksack) to throw at the police - No.

the people who bring bricks are already planning violence before they attend.

dont try telling me that they happen to find them lying around because short of building sites, not many places have bricks just sitting there, and building sites are usually secured from public access.

[grendel]

we are not against the protesters, we are against the violence and lawlessness that accompanies them.

[MauriceMynah]

That's the second time it has been implied that I am a racist, by two different people. I'm not happy about that, not happy at all.

[rightsaidfred]

16 minutes ago, batrabill said:

You don’t see it do you? You don’t even know anyone who is offended by the statue of a slave trader, do you? 
 

But you all feel qualified to comment. 

I know several coloured people who are not, I also know quite a few who appreciate they have a better life than if they were back in Africa, yes we do discuss it and many of them are as dismayed by the way they are being portrayed and the backlash they fear because of the attitudes and behaviour of the minority, as is often said it is the vocal minority that get all the attention.

Fred

 

 

 

 

 

[grendel]

2 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

That's the second time it has been implied that I am a racist, by two different people. I'm not happy about that, not happy at all.

its all too easy nowadays for people to throw out accusations like that without having to show a shred of proof, from what I can see we are all (who are commenting on this thread) being accused of racism, because we are discussing it. 

Whats the alternative, not discuss it, sweep it under the carpet, erase it from history, "no, it never happened, see it isnt in the history books".

That would be the worst way to stop it happening again.

[trambo]

42 minutes ago, batrabill said:

Frankly this just sounds like a bunch of white middle aged men endlessly saying “why is everyone making such a fuss about racism”?

 

You’re just refusing to accept that there is a problem, which funnily enough means, yes you ARE the problem. 
 

 

First I think I'm classed by society as an old man and second I am not the problem.

I agree and can not argue with most of your premise. Were we fundamentally disagree though is our different views on the respect for history and how fundamental the understanding of that history has on the way we conduct our society today. I did not know of the Colston statue or the man until recent events. I am not aware how the statue was presented to be viewed. Was there a full explanation of the man or would it be viewed as erected? These things are important to understand fully what drove the crowd to do what they did. Was it vandalism, pent up anger or an escape for feelings about an event in another country. Whatever it was, it happened and that is now also part of history. What should happen now? I personally believe it should be exhibited in the way it was recovered, with a full explanation to why it was erected in the first place and why it ended up in the condition it is now. Just the facts, no opinion, that is up to the viewer to decide.

Fred

[Poppy]

Suppose - just suppose that in Germany there had been statues erected to the 'heros' of Nazism, and that they still stood in public places today. 

Well, it was part of history.

[Hylander]

Mindless vandalism isn't a new thing.   Just walk around any our churches and you will see paintings defaced.      Our Royal family has more skeletons in the cupboard than you can shake a stick at.    Not a lot they can do about their predecessors is there?   Same goes for all the statues of people who are now no longer with us.     I agree about 'rent a mob' it is the same lot every time.   They all want this state where they dictate as to what happens.    Be careful what you wish for,  in a lot of countries you start up like they have and they would be seen no more.   At least we have the right to protest.

 

 

[grendel]

3 minutes ago, Hylander said:

At least we have the right to protest.

we do at present, but for how much longer should this mindless violence continue?