Racism And The Colston Statue

[ScrumpyCheddar]

3 hours ago, psychicsurveyor said:

I understand the statue will be recovered and put in a museum.

 I hope it isn't repaired and the graffiti cleaned off as that would remove recent history.

 

As I drove through Bristol city centre along Colston Avenue at 06.30am this morning Bristol city council was out there at the concrete base of the statue steam cleaning all the Graffiti off from there Anti social behaviour yesterday... Oh and to top it of was the great british tv media was there filming It all..

Yesterday Why didn’t they go the whole hog and wreck The Colston Hall or Colston Tower or Colston school Lets face it anything with his Name on it gives them something to kick off about..

Any excuse to have civil unrest... These are the same idiots who caused the extinct rebellion unrest months ago in the city... Same faces again.. Who really don’t care about the cause of the protest and it’s meaning....

 If this feeling of bad and hate towards Edward Colston over years why wasn’t his statue wrecked in the early eighties when the St Paul Bristol riots took place... Or taken down or Removed properly...?? 
 

Lets go back to an interesting fact about the COLSTON HALL 

if it was so bad and RACIST back then,  Why did the likes of  Bob Marley. Jimmi Hendrix. B B King and Louis Armstrong. And many more have performed there over the years... And they didn’t comment over there venue and it’s name and it’s history.

Only one group has refused to play there and that’s Massive Attack ... They said they would only perform there if the Hall was renamed and that is in the process of being transformed into a new hall as we speak. So that’s a very Positive thing for the future... 

Historically Edward Colston  actions of Legal slavery and the slave trade. Can not be changed.. His appalling action on how these Poor human beings was treated was unforgivable and very sad..

Colston is no more different to the human traffickers of the  21st century, and thats carrying on day in and day out, and this is world wide, and nobody is protesting over them being shipped as forced labour and when it goes bad they are found dead in a shipping containers  or a refer trailers... This will go on past are life time... And it will never stop.

At the end of the day it doesn’t matter what Colour we are or religious beliefs or religion... 

WE ARE ALL EQUAL...

 

 

[Upcycler]

1 hour ago, ScrumpyCheddar said:

Any excuse to have civil unrest... These are the same idiots who caused the extinct rebellion unrest months ago in the city... Same faces again.. Who really don’t care about the cause of the protest and it’s meaning....

 

 

Totally agree.

Their cause has more meaning if it is carried out peacefully.

Same as the people who live on the streets. So when you see them leave their cardboard beds, empty food packaging and their personal waste for others to clean up, you feel less sorry for them!

[floydraser]

Here in Leicestershire I didn't witness racism until I left school in the early seventies. When my kids went to school they witnessed hardly any racism. My grandchildren cannot for the life of them understand hate based on skin colour/religion and even sexual orientation. Racism should be encouraged to "grow out" of our culture with generations, which it is naturally doing. Unfortunately, there seems to be a group of people who's agenda includes stoking the racism fire to keep it current.

As always the media doesn't help.

 

[ChrisB]

The 18th century was a time of much injustice. What about the quasi-slavery of the Navvies who built our infastructure, firstly the canals then railways. Paid often a large proportion of their wages in tokens to be spent only in the company shop. Only 30% were brought over from Ireland the rest were home grown. They had nothing left when food and shelter was taken from their wages.

Then there is the appalling conditions of mill workers both at work and in their accommodation and the children who were employed by the mills and worse underground for coal.

What about the clearances where sheep were more profitable than people so they were evicted until hunger fueled mass emigration.

The trade triangle of misery UK-West Africa-Caribean-UK in the name of Sugar was not the only dreadful cruelty of the 1700s there was plenty to be found at home.

[Upcycler]

4 minutes ago, floydraser said:

Here in Leicestershire I didn't witness racism until I left school in the early seventies. When my kids went to school they witnessed hardly any racism. My grandchildren cannot for the life of them understand hate based on skin colour/religion and even sexual orientation. Racism should be encouraged to "grow out" of our culture with generations, which it is naturally doing. Unfortunately, there seems to be a group of people who's agenda includes stoking the racism fire to keep it current.

As always the media doesn't help.

 

What fluffy cloud do you live on? I am white and my girlfriend is black and I have a friend of mine in the same sort of relationship. Why do I get evil stares from groups of men from both sides if you know what I mean?

[floydraser]

12 minutes ago, Upcycler said:

What fluffy cloud do you live on? I am white and my girlfriend is black and I have a friend of mine in the same sort of relationship. Why do I get evil stares from groups of men from both sides if you know what I mean?

I wouldn't know, maybe your flies are undone?

Depends on your interpretation of an evil stare. My natural expression is "dead miserable" even when I'm as happy as a pig in whatever the word is. If I caught your eye in the street you may interpret that as an evil stare, with or without  your girlfriend present.

Where do you live? 

[VetChugger]

7 hours ago, Vaughan said:

Churchill, who led the country through six years of world war to defeat what is arguably the worst regime of racial genocide in world history.

My apologies for a bit of cherry picking Vaughan but when addressing the merits or whatever of Churchill, don't just look at WWll. This was copied from another forum because he said this better than i could!

"Winston Churchill: heroic anti-Nazi war-time leader, personification of the 'bulldog spirit' or entitled, racist aristocrat who personally oversaw the burning to death of Jewish anarchists, suggested the shooting of striking Welsh miners and was the architect of a devastating famine in which millions of Indians lost their lives? Is it possible for us to reconcile passionate national mythology with detached historical science and understand him as both?, it is only by fully understanding our past and coming to terms with it that we can reconcile and move forward. The imperial past should be confined to a museum, where it can be studied and discussed objectively, and, in the meantime, we need to find new heroes and new ideas to inspire us. Let the plinths reflect our aspirations, not our divisions. "

I'm afraid unconditional hero worship of the man really makes me very uncomfortable!

[Paladin]

5 hours ago, VetChugger said:

My apologies for a bit of cherry picking Vaughan but when addressing the merits or whatever of Churchill, don't just look at WWll. This was copied from another forum because he said this better than i could!

"Winston Churchill: heroic anti-Nazi war-time leader, personification of the 'bulldog spirit' or entitled, racist aristocrat who personally oversaw the burning to death of Jewish anarchists, suggested the shooting of striking Welsh miners and was the architect of a devastating famine in which millions of Indians lost their lives? Is it possible for us to reconcile passionate national mythology with detached historical science and understand him as both?, it is only by fully understanding our past and coming to terms with it that we can reconcile and move forward. The imperial past should be confined to a museum, where it can be studied and discussed objectively, and, in the meantime, we need to find new heroes and new ideas to inspire us. Let the plinths reflect our aspirations, not our divisions. "

I'm afraid unconditional hero worship of the man really makes me very uncomfortable!

What was the source of this anti-Churchill rhetoric, please? It doesn’t take much research to see just how biased it is. He was certainly no angel and, perhaps, not a very nice person, but simply to repeat such ... words fail me ...does no-one any favours.

[MauriceMynah]

If I take my own life as an example, I find that my opinions from the 70s are very different from the opinions I hold now. The actions I would have approved of back then are poles apart from those I approve of now. Was I a bad person back then? I don't think so!

This is not unreasonable. Society 50 years ago is very different from society now. This is why I often say we shouldn't apply todays morals to yesterdays situations.

In my original post on this thread I asked if Alf Garnet would have thought himself a racist. Personally I doubt he would because although he referred to black people as "coons" other people were going out "Paki bashing". Oh yes, the attitudes of the  60s and 70s were attitudes that we all can look back at, wondering if we really were like that. Don't feel shame though, because at that time we would have been looking at the terrible attitudes being demonstrated 50 years before. 'Twas ever thus. 

So. We look at Churchills actions and views of his earlier years. Only judge them if you know and understand what society as a whole was like back then.

[Vaughan]

12 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

Only judge them if you know and understand what society as a whole was like back then.

Hence all the fuss about the name of Guy Gibson's dog.  Did that mean he was a racist?

[Ray]

It's a wide reaching subject and differs I think case by case. Guy Gibson's dog, no problem at all. Branding people with the company name and selling them into slavery? Not so much.

Knowing about society and it's outlook at the time of these things is helpful in historical context, but you really have to go deeper to get the whole picture. People were fighting slavery and calling for it's abolishion then too. It wasn't a subject universally accepted, there was knowledge that it was wrong and the people perpetrating brutality were the more educated and wealthy.

Making big money has always been able to buy conscience!

[Vaughan]

6 minutes ago, Ray said:

People were fighting slavery and calling for it's abolishion then too.

Which doesn't explain to me why rent - a - mob also defaced the statue of Abraham Lincoln.

[MauriceMynah]

• Or the Cenotaph .

[TheQ]

10 hours ago, ChrisB said:

The 18th century was a time of much injustice. What about the quasi-slavery of the Navvies who built our infastructure, firstly the canals then railways. Paid often a large proportion of their wages in tokens to be spent only in the company shop. Only 30% were brought over from Ireland the rest were home grown. They had nothing left when food and shelter was taken from their wages.

Then there is the appalling conditions of mill workers both at work and in their accommodation and the children who were employed by the mills and worse underground for coal.

What about the clearances where sheep were more profitable than people so they were evicted until hunger fueled mass emigration.

The trade triangle of misery UK-West Africa-Caribean-UK in the name of Sugar was not the only dreadful cruelty of the 1700s there was plenty to be found at home.

The Navvies were not slaves, they chose to be there, they chose to do so because it was better pay and a better way of life that they had before.. Many were farm labourers, who went back to farming at harvest and planting times..

Not all imported Navvies were Irish, on the line on which my Great Great Great Grandfather was a Navvy,  the majority foreign workers were Portuguese though he was of Irish descent.

The clearances were not just for sheep, as in Ireland, Many of the Highlands people depended potatos for survival. With the potato blight many were starving.

Some like the Duke of Sutherland who is decried today, spent the equivalent of millions, building homes and harbours to try to give "his" people a chance of survival by fishing.

The Dukes of Argyll spent vast amounts to feed their people, to try to keep people on the land..

Many more chose to leave than were pushed out, but they are forgotten.

The Scottish system of labourers wages meant they only got half pay during their contracted term (Six months or a year) they got the rest at the end of that term.. That's where  many people got the money from to Emigrate to Canada / USA / Austraila. In other cases the Laird paid, or they took contract for a job in their destination to pay for the trip.

 

 

[rightsaidfred]

Yesterday, last week, last month are all now history we cant change them only learn from whatever happened.

Discrimination on whatever basis be it colour, creed, religion or sexuality is unacceptable to the vast majority of people in this country, sadly  there will always be a few with prejudices and the mob behaviour we see at most demonstrations only reinforces those prejudices, one thing to take note of is that despite the images displayed on the media they only represent a small proportion of the population, sadly on all sides it is the few who shout the loudest have the greatest prejudices that create issues that reflect on the peaceful majority.

Fred

[TheQ]

35 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

 

In my original post on this thread I asked if Alf Garnet would have thought himself a racist. Personally I doubt he would because although he referred to black people as "coons" other people were going out "Paki bashing". Oh yes, the attitudes of the  60s and 70s were attitudes that we all can look back at, wondering if we really were like that. Don't feel shame though, because at that time we would have been looking at the terrible attitudes being demonstrated 50 years before. 'Twas ever thus. 

.

As a person of Jewish descent Warren Mitchell (real name Misell), new all about racism. What many forget was the show was against racism, and the whole premise of the show was to show how rediculous racism was.

[Poppy]

Just now, TheQ said:

As a person of Jewish descent Warren Mitchell (real name Misell), new all about racism. What many forget was the show was against racism, and the whole premise of the show was to show how rediculous racism was.

Its popularity was undoubtedly due to the ignorance and stupidity of all the racists who took it at face value and absolutely loved it !

[Ray]

14 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

Which doesn't explain to me why rent - a - mob also defaced the statue of Abraham Lincoln.

 

12 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

Or the Cenotaph

Nor to me, but rent a mob don't know either, they just want to fight the establishment, I was more addressing what the genuine protesters feel.

[RumPunch]

5 minutes ago, Poppy said:

Its popularity was undoubtedly due to the ignorance and stupidity of all the racists who took it at face value and absolutely loved it !

That explains it - always wondered why he was a Spurs fan

 

[TheQ]

One other problem is perceived racism when there isn't any. The Series "It ain't 'af Hot mum" is a case in point. Much decried because of a "white British man" playing the main Indian Character.. Except he was born in India and spoke fluent Hindi, his light tan makeup  being not much more than they wear on Strictly..

Or as I witnessed in St Andrews, I was eating my dinner in a cafe that was part of the Hotel (the restaurant upstairs was too expensive). When a Mixed race couple came in and were told they would have to wait till a table became available. They were looking at a vacant table, after a while they shouted this is racism and stormed out...

However As a regular to that Cafe, I can tell you that table never had food served on it, as it was between the bar / kitchens and doorways. Any other couple would have just asked about that table..

As to the statue, I'll bet 99% of people knew nothing of the past of Coulson, so how did it offend them? it's only because someone found out about it and informed them they should be offended. It wasn't a statue put up to a slave trader, it was a statue put up to some one did good in the town.

Even for the School girl of non White British descent interviewed this Morning, Who benefitting from learning at a School founded by Colston

[MauriceMynah]

31 minutes ago, TheQ said:

As a person of Jewish descent Warren Mitchell (real name Misell), new all about racism. What many forget was the show was against racism, and the whole premise of the show was to show how rediculous racism was.

I am well aware that Alf Garnet was a fictitious character invented by Johnny Speight and performed by Warren Mitchell. I am equally aware that the objective of the scripts  was to highlight racism for what it was.

35 minutes ago, Poppy said:

Its popularity was undoubtedly due to the ignorance and stupidity of all the racists who took it at face value and absolutely loved it !

There would undoubtedly be such people, and I wouldn't like to guess at the ratio of those who were like that and those who took it for what it really was, but I certainly wouldn't say what you have said there.

 

32 minutes ago, RumPunch said:

That explains it - always wondered why he was a Spurs fan

 

Alf Garnet was a West Ham fan.

[Poppy]

1 minute ago, MauriceMynah said:

I am well aware that Alf Garnet was a fictitious character invented by Johnny Speight and performed by Warren Mitchell. I am equally aware that the objective of the scripts  was to highlight racism for what it was.

There would undoubtedly be such people, and I wouldn't like to guess at the ratio of those who were like that and those who took it for what it really was, but I certainly wouldn't say what you have said there.

 

 

Not sure what you are saying.  Is it that racists aren't ignorant and stupid ?

[Vaughan]

32 minutes ago, Ray said:

I was more addressing what the genuine protesters feel.

The genuine protesters had no right to be there either, in breach of the virus legislation. So the whole thing was a mass breakdown of law and order on the streets of our cities. I find that far more serious than protestors' bigoted attitudes.

[floydraser]

I watched 'Till Death us do Part and Love thy Neighbour but neither of them convinced me to hold racist views. Ordinary black and asian people with a sense of humour do more good for race relations than any activist.

[TheQ]

5 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

I am well aware that Alf Garnet was a fictitious character invented by Johnny Speight and performed by Warren Mitchell. I am equally aware that the objective of the scripts  was to highlight racism for what it was.

 

But many aren't so that's why I answered it that way