Racism And The Colston Statue

[MotorBoater]

15 hours ago, batrabill said:

No. That’s a crazy comparison. 
 

Statues are erected to celebrate, mark, laud, and promote people of note. If you can’t detect how offensive it is for a black person to walk past a statue of a slave trader every day you are probably white. 
 

No history is “erased” by removing as statue of a slave trader. In fact many more people are now aware of the facts of the past and where a great deal of the wealth of this nation came from. 
 

The Nazis comparison is false, and so far over the top it beggars belief. 

 

The idea that it is a crazy comparison is an example of the thinking that let the Nazis get away with so much early on, when so much more should have been done to let them know their behaviour was unacceptable.

Can someone please point me at a statue erected because the individual was a slave trader ?

Black (And White) people can walk past statues of many people, in many cities, in this country and will be unaware of whether they made their pile trading in slaves or paper clips - until someone tells them.

Many people are indeed aware of the past, maybe not enough, but there are obviously not enough people aware of where the money went either.

Hospitals (Pre NHS & District Councils), schools & colleges, parks & open spaces were either provided and/or maintained by the owners of various enterprises, some nefarious, some benign. This doesn't make it right but does suggest guilty feelings later in life.

If we have got it so wrong, if we are held in such disdain, if we are such monsters, why are so many people from commonwealth countries, and others, so keen to come here and live amongst us. We hear little from them only from the minority (And yes even 100,000 would be a minority) who seek their "15 minutes of fame".

I have read here many attempts at suggestions to ease the tensions and plot a possible way forward (Unfortunately the audience is too small) then I find one individual implying no-one "Gets it" but him, no-one knows anyone who demonstrated, or why, but him and that we must all be middle-aged whites !

I seriously doubt the last bit but who knows. It won't change the commonsense opinions displayed here.

The myopic bigotry also displayed won't change them either.

I write as someone with more black and asian friends than white (Originally from North London I've done time in the North East, North West, Midlands, South London, all the Southern Counties and Southwest - including, yes, Bristol, some years ago.

I can tell you that none of my friends would be seen dead on the kind of demonstration witnessed lately and none of them think the demos were on their behalf. All are integrated into their neighbourhoods, all have, or had, reservations over equality but all believe dialogue is the way forward.

The Itelligence Services have been warning of stirrings on the far right for some time, expressed again this week. Doubtless Rent-A-Mob will be blaming someone else for that too.

It's taken a while to put this together, I was hoping I wouldn't have to but the illconsidered ravings on here are too much at a time when we should be drawing together, not to mention further clouding the issue.

The simple truth is that this has already been festering for a considerable time. It could have waited a bit longer to be sorted until the present emergency is over.

The issue now is statues, whatever happened to the issue of "Police Brutality" that the demos were supposed to be about ?

I say again "15 minutes of fame".

[Wussername]

I liked your post MB. I would also like to thank you as well. So I have done so here.

Andrew

[MotorBoater]

Appreciated, toys back in the pram.

[Vaughan]

5 hours ago, MotorBoater said:

toys back in the pram.

Not in the least! It sounds more  to me, if you want an analogy, that you have all your ducks in a row!

[TheQ]

The year is 2024, the world is in permanent Lock down, and not because of a virus, in fact there are no viruses or colds because of the lock down.

First Statues were removed because someone might be offended, initially it was just the anyone who may have been a slave trader, then anyone who may have been as slave traders son  or daughter. Then all statues were removed as they may offend.

Then the films, any showing the past at first, that may not show racial diversity in the past. Then any where an actor is playing someone of a different race, So American Australians  couldn't play a 13th century Scotsman of Welsh Descent, fighting for one Scotman of Norman Descent against another Scotman of Anglo Norman Descent.

That progressed to television and all forms of media, at first no one could play, another race, sex or age. then eventually no one could play anyone but themsleves. So drama was banned, you were only left with real life filming, but that to was banned, because it may offend someone not of the same race, age or sex.

 The News was banned fairly early on, crime could not be reported in case you upset a victim or criminal, in fact the the term criminal could not be used because you can't label anyone. Actions between nations could not be reported, because that's racist. 

From there it progressed to books, anything involved with slavery,  race, ageism, Sexism, was banned.. Mathematics books was banned because it used Arab numerals, and the  concept of Zero invented by numerous different races...

And so to the lock down, no one is allowed outside in case you offend someone, food  and other materials are delivered by robot by a firm called   "          ". company names are banned because they may offend, especially the former company Amazon which is both a racist and sexist name.

At first, a life partner was selected at random by computer, it may have been of any age, sex, race, or religion. Then it was realized that the life partner may offend, so they too were banned.

The human race is expected to die out within 100 years, if the robot delivery service lasts that long as there is no one allowed out to repair them.

Excuse me, I think there is a knocking on the door, as I mentioned the terms above, by a robot who may or may not be from the Authorities not wear an offending uniform or carrying a badge as that may offend, it will want to lock me up  in an non offensive institution .

[RumPunch]

In the year 2525

The robots have taken over the world. Monuments to humans who enslaved their ancestors are being torn down.

Discuss

[TheQ]

5 minutes ago, RumPunch said:

In the year 2525

The robots have taken over the world. Monuments to humans who enslaved their ancestors are being torn down.

 

Sorry, not allowed, Discussion may offend..

[ChrisB]

12 minutes ago, RumPunch said:

In the year 2525

The robots have taken over the world. Monuments to humans who enslaved their ancestors are being torn down.

Discuss

I remember the song by Zager and Evans.

EDIT TO SAY:- Just looked it up! It was 52 years ago! I must be getting very old seems like yesterday. Big hit back then.

[Vaughan]

11 minutes ago, RumPunch said:

n the year 2525

If Man is still alive . . . . 

[ChrisB]

Found it, the power of the Net.

 

[Vaughan]

29 minutes ago, TheQ said:

The year is 2024, the world is in permanent Lock down, and not because of a virus, in fact there are no viruses or colds because of the lock down.

Thank you for that Q and I liked the reference to Braveheart.

I have always believed that good satire is never far from the truth.

[grendel]

without straying too far into religion, technically (according to the roman Authorities at the time) Jesus was a terrorist.

many depictions show him suffering a cruel and degrading punishment.

should we now remove all statues and depictions of him from view because it may offend someone?

we have all been taught the history of this person and should understand why we are still showing these statues.

Having read up on the colson statue, I now understood it had been erected by the victorians, that was a great period of reform, child labour was being eradicated, as was exploitation of the poor, yet still many of the prejudices we now look upon with horror were still in practice. did the victorians misjudge the man when they erected a statue to him, probably not by their standards. many may not have known about the shadier side of his business dealings, and judged him purely on those good deeds he did in bristol, but looking back in hindsight, yes it is probably time his statue was retired to a museum, with a full description of his works, good and bad, so people can learn from this and judge him accordingly.

But to attack and desecrate a statue as part of a protest was not the right way to go about this, from what I understand the issue was under discussion already, and this may have pushed along the decision, but some protesters went along with the intent to cause damage, they took ropes with them, so it was pre-meditated damage, (see my earlier explanation on bricks). they went to a peaceful protest with the intent to cause damage - these are the criminals that need to be eradicated, the violent militant ones.

[Vaughan]

I suppose what TheQ is asking is : once you have started down this road, how far do you go and where does it stop?

Having read the papers this morning I don't at all like the way local councils are meekly acceding to the demands of a social media "petition".

Signing a petition does not just mean "liking" a post on the internet.

[Chelsea14Ian]

I think people  need to get a grip on this.Set up a National  inquiry  into the whole question  of Race relations, equality, Education  and so on.Very wide ranging I admit. As it stands,this whole thing is playing  into the hands of a group of odd fellows, rent a mob at the front,who frankly  dont agree with any one apart from themselves. Sometime in future  they will latch on to any protect that appears, no doubt  many of them that took part in the climate protects. Some local councils,using what muscle they have to have a go at the Government.Many that are taking part are just following along perhaps they dont want to miss out.Many middle aged, middle  class,for there own political reasons.In short the real reason it started in the first place,was the clear fact that a man died at the hand of a Police  officer. Understandable that people  want to protect.Quite rightly he and the other Police  officers are facing justice. We do I believe  need to debate many issues concerning  race and take correct action. If these protects continue  in my view the only thing it will active is to make matters worse. 

[TheQ]

it doesn't matter how many inquiries you have, someone will say the results are wrong and probably call the inquiry racist..

[Tempest]

People should stop and think, as reality may be very different from the dream.

In my experience once you undermine law and order and those who you entrust to keep the peace, you undermine the very fabric of society

This attack on police in London last night was inevitable and will only get worse if mob rule is allowed to determine the direction of the country

https://news.sky.com/story/amp/disgusting-violent-attack-two-police-officers-injured-in-hackney-assault-12004526


Sent from the Norfolk Broads Network mobile app

[MauriceMynah]

There are blinkered people on both sides of this fence, neither has my sympathy. Trouble making anti government activists should never be in a position to dictate that which may or may not have the support of the majority, unless democracy itself is to be removed. 

I listened today to a young lady explaining to me why the statue of Baden Powel should be removed. He had racist  views and Nazi sympathies.

Oddly enough I started to think that this was one good reason for that statue to remain. As much as like most, I abhor the very idea of the  Nazi political ideals, to remove a statue of that person for that persons political beliefs is contrary to everything this country alleges to stand for. Political freedom. He was a racist. Ok, was that in thought or in deed? If it was in thought, again, have we thrown away our ideals about freedom? If it was in deed, then what did he do that was so bad as to expunge his founding the Scout movement?

I am well aware of those who will tell me that "political freedom" no longer exists in this country, but that is hardly the point. We do our best. Moderate governments do their best, and the Police force does it's best. Sometimes "their best" isn't quite good enough, but that doesn't mean it's not  their best. 

[Chelsea14Ian]

There may well be a Irony here.History may tell us in years to come,that may be the fight against  covad- 19 a world  wide pandemic was hindered  by protects by those fighting in there view Racial inequality. 

[Paul]

I'm afraid this is now descending into lunacy, no doubt, in my mind at least, fueled by the frustrations of such an extended lock down. When I heard on the news of the removal of the Baden Powell statue I was horrified, though I have since learned that it's planned removal if to protect from attack, rather than for reasons of his past associations. 

This all started with the death of a Black American man at the hands of law enforcement officers, a disgraceful event which stains that nations character. It is for the leaders and citizens of that nation to address that situation, and for right minded people everywhere to support them in their efforts. Sadly it is not the first such incident in the USA and sadly I doubt that it will be the last. The USA has a terrible record of social reform and I believe it will take generations before that changes. That doesn't make the struggle to implement change is any less important, in fact it makes it more so. 

But to use this as an excuse to commit criminal acts is wrong. When society or any part of it takes it upon themselves to enact "social justice" then a slippery slope is created, one which leads to anarchy and mob rule and sadly we are seeing that on our streets right now. It must be stopped. Those guilty of these crimes must be bought to justice, whatever their personal beliefs of right and wrong. If not stopped, then where does it end, it ends in violence and bloodshed. A statue to day becomes the politician you disagree with tomorrow. 

[Ray]

Or we could actually listen to the genuine protesters about their treatment in this country and where things are wrong put them right. Then rent-a-mob will not have a protest to hijack!

[floydraser]

13 minutes ago, Paul said:

I'm afraid this is now descending into lunacy, no doubt, in my mind at least, fueled by the frustrations of such an extended lock down. When I heard on the news of the removal of the Baden Powell statue I was horrified, though I have since learned that it's planned removal if to protect from attack, rather than for reasons of his past associations. 

This all started with the death of a Black American man at the hands of law enforcement officers, a disgraceful event which stains that nations character. It is for the leaders and citizens of that nation to address that situation, and for right minded people everywhere to support them in their efforts. Sadly it is not the first such incident in the USA and sadly I doubt that it will be the last. The USA has a terrible record of social reform and I believe it will take generations before that changes. That doesn't make the struggle to implement change is any less important, in fact it makes it more so. 

But to use this as an excuse to commit criminal acts is wrong. When society or any part of it takes it upon themselves to enact "social justice" then a slippery slope is created, one which leads to anarchy and mob rule and sadly we are seeing that on our streets right now. It must be stopped. Those guilty of these crimes must be bought to justice, whatever their personal beliefs of right and wrong. If not stopped, then where does it end, it ends in violence and bloodshed. A statue to day becomes the politician you disagree with tomorrow. 

Very well put. I would add that it may be better for history's sake if we let the situation in the USA settle down a bit before we started removing statues etc so that our efforts were not prompted by theirs or next time they have a mass shooting, we'll be banning guns.

[MauriceMynah]

11 minutes ago, Ray said:

Or we could actually listen to the genuine protesters about their treatment in this country and where things are wrong put them right. Then rent-a-mob will not have a protest to hijack!

I would be delighted to listen, and would, more than likely agree with the vast majority of what they have to say. 

How and where are questions that spring to mind. 

[Paul]

13 minutes ago, Ray said:

Or we could actually listen to the genuine protesters about their treatment in this country and where things are wrong put them right. Then rent-a-mob will not have a protest to hijack!

the problem with that is that while mob rule and anarchy govern our streets the genuine voices, which are the most important are the hardest to hear. 

[ExSurveyor]

[trambo]

23 minutes ago, Ray said:

Or we could actually listen to the genuine protesters about their treatment in this country and where things are wrong put them right. Then rent-a-mob will not have a protest to hijack!

Spot on. Listen and you may agree, disagree or partially agree but you have listened. Listen, so important but how often do we all react without doing that? 

Fred