Racism And The Colston Statue

[Vaughan]

52 minutes ago, batrabill said:

But you all feel qualified to comment. 

Actually I am qualified to comment on this one.  I spent several years in and out of Belfast as a soldier in the early 70s, at the height of the recent "troubles". 

All I remember from those times of civil war, is hatred.  But it was blind hatred, as at least the last 3 generations of the local people had totally forgotten why they hated each other : all they knew was that they hated.

If you asked them to explain it, they would just fall back on William of Orange or failing that, Oliver Cromwell.  Hence the "marching season" and the Orange Order which in today's society are just meaningless provocation.

My point is that if we are ever going to have peace with each other in our inner cities then me must learn to live together now, in the present day and not blindly blame it all on the past.  Pulling down statues simply ignores that nowadays, we should be intelligent enough to know better.

What worries me, from that experience, is that I can see all the symptoms here, for the "troubles" to break out in our mainland cities.  If we want to see troops on our streets, then I don't think we will have very long to wait.

[rightsaidfred]

4 minutes ago, Poppy said:

Suppose - just suppose that in Germany there had been statues erected to the 'heros' of Nazism, and that they still stood in public places today. 

Well, it was part of history.

I don`t see the relevance! while they may be a part of German history they were recognised in their lifetime as Murderers and Criminals not heros or benefactors by a lot of their own country men let alone the rest of the world, so the question never arose.

Fred

[grendel]

1 hour ago, batrabill said:

Frankly this just sounds like a bunch of white middle aged men endlessly saying “why is everyone making such a fuss about racism”?

 

You’re just refusing to accept that there is a problem, which funnily enough means, yes you ARE the problem. 
 

 

We are discussing the issue and trying to work out a solution, we are not ignoring it in the hope it will go away, we do see it as a problem, but we are trying to solve it without destroying or hiding our countries history, bad as it may be.

If we removed everything that might offend anyone, the whole world would be beige and neutral with no stimuli. and free thought would be frowned upon.

you are the one refusing to accept that there could be a peaceful means of solving the issue, therefore it is you that is the problem. we embrace the problem and are attempting to solve it peacefully, without recourse to violence or lawbreaking.

[JennyMorgan]

41 minutes ago, Poppy said:

Suppose - just suppose that in Germany there had been statues erected to the 'heros' of Nazism, and that they still stood in public places today. 

Well, it was part of history.

With respect to Germany I was there during the 1960's, a time when that country was still coming to terms with it's then recent history. As I was soon to realise the children were not responsible for the sins of their fathers. Since that time I have grown to admire the way Germany has coped with what is sometimes politely referred to as their negative history. 

[batrabill]

40 minutes ago, rightsaidfred said:

I don`t see the relevance! while they may be a part of German history they were recognised in their lifetime as Murderers and Criminals not heros or benefactors by a lot of their own country men let alone the rest of the world, so the question never arose.

Fred

Precisely, exactly!

 

Lots of people at the time of slavery saw it as evil.

Turned out they we right. Perhaps they’d be more deserving of a statue?

[trambo]

7 minutes ago, Poppy said:

Suppose - just suppose that in Germany there had been statues erected to the 'heros' of Nazism, and that they still stood in public places today. 

Well, it was part of history.

You make a very good point and one it is hard to disagree with until you again look at the history, the mentality and political situation of Germany after the Second World War. It was the national will and the will of her conquerors. A statement of intent from people destroyed at all levels. 

As for this country are you saying just pull everything down that offends and if so will anything commemorating  Winston Churchill to Gracie Fields be left at all? That sounds flippant but this country is what it is because of it's past and I agree an awful lot of it is disagreeable  but I would not like to live anywhere else, warts and all.

Fred

[Tempest]

2 hours ago, batrabill said:

Frankly this just sounds like a bunch of white middle aged men endlessly saying “why is everyone making such a fuss about racism”?

 

You’re just refusing to accept that there is a problem, which funnily enough means, yes you ARE the problem. 
 

 

Frankly this sounds like a bigotry!

Bigots are the problem as they are quick to throw accusations at others, become aggressive or violent, all because someone doesn't have the same opinion as them

Where has the tolerance and respect for the views of others gone today?

Because it appears sadly lacking in you

So please by all means express an opinion on racism and potential solutions to the issues of TODAY, but dont fall into the trap of the many bigots and start throwing comments like "you ARE the problem" and inferring that people who may not hold the same opinion as you are in fact racists

[Hylander]

Gosh be glad when we can  meet over a beer one sunny evening.    There is one resounding point that we all agree on and that is a need for kindness and consideration towards our fellow man.  We can all argue and rant about the past until the cows come home none of us can change the past,  we can only do our best for a better future for every last one of us. 

 

 

[floydraser]

3 hours ago, rightsaidfred said:

Maybe all these people desecrating statues etc could do with a history lesson, yes it was the white traders who transported the slaves but it was mainly the Ashanti tribe along with other African tribes and Arab slavers who provided them in the first place, I havn`t heard any reporting or condemnation of this aspect of the trade but then that wouldn`t fit the agenda.

Fred

I was thinking along these lines and wondered how much wealth had been created in Ghana and if there are statues over there. 

Future history will have to explain why in 2020 all these statues were removed or relocated. 

[Poppy]

Happy birthday to Prince Philip on his 99th birthday. When asked what he wanted, he said

'NOT to have a statue of himself erected'. 

[VetChugger]

3 hours ago, Vaughan said:

My point is that if we are ever going to have peace with each other in our inner cities then me must learn to live together now, in the present day and not blindly blame it all on the past.  Pulling down statues simply ignores that nowadays, we should be intelligent enough to know better.

I would add to that by saying we also need to accept and acknowledge the wrongs of the past and not try to either deny them or make excuses for them. We need to recognise them as lessons as to how we should progress and develop our relationships and lives together accepting that  society is judged by how it treats and shows compassion for those who are disadvantaged by age , race or gender and cannot protect or fend for themselves.

[Poppy]

2 hours ago, floydraser said:

I was thinking along these lines and wondered how much wealth had been created in Ghana and if there are statues over there. 

Future history will have to explain why in 2020 all these statues were removed or relocated. 

That won't be too difficult. However explaining why it took so long may be .

[FairTmiddlin]

Where is all this wrecking of history supposed to stop?

Should I ask for my local cathedral ( Canterbury ) to be torn down.

Maybe it's to worship a god, that I don't worship?

It was ordered to be built by Ethelberga and his invading horde, (Saxons), built by a Frenchman Augustine.

And to cap it all it was built out of stone from Caen.

Was this an affront to my beliefs?

Should it be torn down?

This is part of our rich tapestry of our history, much of which is ingrained into all of our local landscape.

And I never heard of any protests about the genocidal tendency of Mugabe, being demonstrated about in the US of A.

Or against Pol Pot in Indonesia. Why then does our community, always take up the spear of some atrocity that happened in other countries.

[trambo]

It looks like the iconic film Gone with the Wind and William Gladstone are getting the treatment, How long before we have Shakespear's The Merchant of Venice banned?

I say again, you can not judge other social times by todays standards. You may find a 1930s film racist (and so many were as well as sexist) and uncomfortable to watch but to ban or hide them away is nothing but censorship and an insult to the viewer. Take the 1936 film version of Showboat. A groundbreaking film that tackled the racism of the day full on but by todays standards, it is full of racist stereotypes and dialect.You can only understand todays society by seeing how that society came into existence. Otherwise you open yet another window to extremism against the values of an open society. It's a slippery slope and a lot of people with the best of motives just don't get it. 

Fred

 

 

[Ray]

That's one of the odd things about this discussion, it has been slowly turned to rewriting history but there hasn't been any attempt to do so. In it's simplist form this discussion is about pulling down a statue which was erected to honour a local benefactor.... who also happened to be a mass murderer.

No one is asking for history to be rewritten simply that horrendous cruelty and inhumanity (and they did know at the time) is not honoured and celebrated.

Put these statues in museums with factual notice boards, take school trips and teach "all" the details of history!

[trambo]

8 minutes ago, Ray said:

11 minutes ago, Ray said:

 

No one is asking for history to be rewritten simply that horrendous cruelty and inhumanity (and they did know at the time) is not honoured and celebrated.

Put these statues in museums with factual notice boards, take school trips and teach "all" the details of history!

 

I agree but to add that we need to understand why society at the time accepted such behaviour or we condemn that society outright.

Fred

[Ray]

Just now, trambo said:

I agree but to add that we need to understand why society at the time accepted such behaviour or we condemn that society outright.

Yes that's fair, it's important that all details are understood and that just as today any given issue will have a variety of reactions for and against.

[Victoryv]

I for one, find it difficult to put the world to rights without the pubs being open.

[MauriceMynah]

2 hours ago, trambo said:

I agree but to add that we need to understand why society at the time accepted such behaviour or we condemn that society outright.

Fred

Society accepted such things as such things were normal. Anybody fighting those things were ridiculed, ignored or just rounded up and imprisoned.

Lets think on to a possible future. Mankind has been saved from extinction from Global warming because people started to take notice of Greta Thunberg. The virus (now beaten by science) is attributed for the massive and sudden fall in fossil fuel usage and that people avoided going back to their old ways.

There is a statue dedicated to motor fanatic Maurice Mynah who won several grands prix, ran about in a car that did 5 miles to the gallon and was a noted jet setter and womanizer BUT he also brought on car technology to a massive extent  and single handedly made the Hydrogen fuel cell economically viable.

Would it be unreasonable for that future society to look back in awe and wonder that Maurice had a statue when he so wickedly wasted fuel and didn't seem to care that the globe was getting hotter. he couldn't claim ignorance as he had listened to, yet disregarded Greta Thunberg.

Now before anybody jumps down my throat, I know I trivialise the situation, but I'm doing this by way of illustration.

We are not that far away from people wondering why smoking isn't made illegal. 30 years ago, it was the norm.

It just isn't good enough to apply todays morals disregarding the historic situation.

We all look at slave trading as abhorrent, but back in the day, it was normal procedure, albeit frowned upon by some. We find that difficult to understand, but that is just indicative of how far society has progressed.

[CambridgeCabby]

A recent report found that in 2018 there were more people worldwide who were classed as slaves than ever before , the current BLM movement wishing to destroy historic monuments would be better off spending their time picketing the Embassy’s of nations that still allow and in some cases support modern slavery .

[stumpy]

I can't help wondering if any recipients of a Rhodes scholarship were persons of colour and will be repaying their awards.

[Ray]

The statue to one Maurice Minor was well deserved because despite his foolhardy use of fossil fuel he didn't personally kill people for personal gain... Bless that man, he helped save the world! 👍

10 minutes ago, CambridgeCabby said:

current BLM movement wishing to destroy historic monuments would be better off spending their time picketing the Embassy’s of nations that still allow and in some cases support modern slavery .

There is indeed a lot of criticism of countries that allow or turn a blind eye to slavery, no doubt some of the critics are BLM supporters and vice versa.

[twowrights]

10 hours ago, batrabill said:

Precisely, exactly!

 

Lots of people at the time of slavery saw it as evil.

Turned out they we right. Perhaps they’d be more deserving of a statue?

Visit Hull, they have two statues of William Wilberforce.

[batrabill]

2 hours ago, CambridgeCabby said:

A recent report found that in 2018 there were more people worldwide who were classed as slaves than ever before , the current BLM movement wishing to destroy historic monuments would be better off spending their time picketing the Embassy’s of nations that still allow and in some cases support modern slavery .

You first

[Tempest]

And another...

https://www.bcpcouncil.gov.uk/News/News-Articles/time-for-community-discussion-on-baden-powell-statue.aspx