Racism And The Colston Statue

[OldBerkshireBoy]

4 minutes ago, RumPunch said:

And is the word that much of British Law is based upon

 Agreed but fear you are missing my point.

[rightsaidfred]

2 hours ago, batrabill said:

This is quite possibly the most untrue statement I have ever read. 
 

I can’t be bothered to unpick it. If you don’t recognise quite how false  it is then you really have a problem. 
 

It is quite clear what tradition this thinking comes from. 
 

 

Batrabill I have no intention in getting involved in a protracted argument however I will quantify my statement.

Having spent 50 years working with and amongst folk from pretty much every culture and background I have seen more racist hatred between various Asian communities, between those from different West Indies islands and different African countrys than I have from the White community.

As far as institualised racism goes for a White male to get a job on many local authorities you have to jump through so many hoops its untrue, if as I did you manage to gain employment you then find that even heads of department are afraid to issue discaplinary procedures for fear of being branded racist even when blatant misuse of flexi time is there for all to see.

None of that excuses racism in any form but does put things into perspectiive especially when those amongst the most violent sector who call for Police protection then call them racist when they take action.

Fred

[Paladin]

1 hour ago, batrabill said:

This is what is known as whataboutism 

That is, someone highlights something bad, people rush in to say what about....?

It’s just a distraction. 

I don’t have time in my life to address problems in other parts of the world, but when I see blatant racism in my own county it is my responsibility to call it out.

"Whataboutism, also known as whataboutery, is a variant of the tu quoque logical fallacy that attempts to discredit an opponent's position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their argument." (Wiki)

Sorry, but I don't think my post fits that definition, but you did manage to avoid responding to the evidence I provided.

[ExSurveyor]

I understand the statue will be recovered and put in a museum.

 I hope it isn't repaired and the graffiti cleaned off as that would remove recent history.

 

[grendel]

If we ignore the fact that there was a slave trade, but we have progressed since that point, if by forgetting the fact that it happened and was a bad thing, we think we have progressed then we are wrong.

It is only by remembering the bad things that were done that we can hope not to have them happen again.

If we forget the holocaust happened and how and why, then we have not learned to heed the warning signs and be able to avoid them.

where racism etc come into it, it is not good enough to counter accusations with I was only doing my job. if you know it is wrong but do it anyway, to my mind that is worse than doing it through ignorance.

 

[batrabill]

30 minutes ago, Paladin said:

"Whataboutism, also known as whataboutery, is a variant of the tu quoque logical fallacy that attempts to discredit an opponent's position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their argument." (Wiki)

Sorry, but I don't think my post fits that definition, but you did manage to avoid responding to the evidence I provided.

Nonsense. Yours just changing the subject. Not falling for that. Start a thread about African genocidd why don’t you?

[Paul]

15 minutes ago, grendel said:

It is only by remembering the bad things that were done that we can hope not to have them happen again.

amen, amen and amen again. Only by remembering these events can we learn the lessons of history, the very valuable lessons which it teaches us. Only by learning those lessons can we hope not to repeat the mistakes of the past. 

Was it General "Ike" Eisenhower, forgive me if I have that wrong, that insisted the allied entry into the concentration camps was filmed, so that it could not be denied or disputed or forgotten. A sagacious decision. Of course there are those who choose to deny it, there are those who still insist that the world is flat. You can educate people in the proven fact, but you cannot counter self-determined ignorance. 

 

[batrabill]

3 hours ago, batrabill said:

This is quite possibly the most untrue statement I have ever read. 
 

I can’t be bothered to unpick it. If you don’t recognise quite how false  it is then you really have a problem. 
 

It is quite clear what tradition this thinking comes from. 
 

 

The above is still true. Your original statement is completely wrong. There is enough evidence to swamp a slave ship that white people are NOT discriminated against in the workplace but those from ethnic minorities are. 
 

It’s also a form of truth denial which shouldn’t have a place on a forum like this. 
 

Im actually sorry to hujack this thread but if people post dangerous, arrant nonsense it must be called out. 
 

Someone very stupid reading this might actually believe that white people are the subject of more racism in London than those of the ethnic minorities. That would be a shame. 

[trambo]

Beware judging history, it will never match up to the present. Colston made a lot (not all) of his money from the slave trade. Totally abhorrent to us today but he also gave large amounts of money to Bristol charitable causes, so in his time was he a bad man? Colston's  infamous statue was not erected until 1895, more than 150 years after his death, so even then he was admired by the people of Bristol. My home city is Liverpool, another city hugely benefiting from the slave trade and a city where you will see numerous references to that trade but they are not hidden but openly discussed, as I believe they should be. You can not wipe out history (or our take on it) and you have to face it and learn from it. Yes the statue should be seen and if it is being moved, scars and all to a more appropriate place, so be it.

Fred

[Ray]

"The toppling of Edward Colston's statue is not an attack on history. It is history"

David Olusoga

This historian writes his view in the Guardian today. It can be said with some accuracy that where it is published lends a certain leaning in the political sense. However he is an historian and it is an interesting read even baring in mind it's provenance..

[grendel]

the phrase that springs to mind is the one that is stated every november 'lest we forget' we must not forget the lessons we have learnt through history.

everyone deserves respect, and everyone should give respect.

 

[rightsaidfred]

5 hours ago, batrabill said:

This is quite possibly the most untrue statement I have ever read. 
 

I can’t be bothered to unpick it. If you don’t recognise quite how false  it is then you really have a problem. 
 

It is quite clear what tradition this thinking comes from. 
 

 

 Batrabill I have witnessed this at first hand so unless you can prove otherwise I take it you are calling me a liar, I will leave it for others to decide what is right and acceptable.

Fred

[floydraser]

1 hour ago, trambo said:

Beware judging history, it will never match up to the present. Colston made a lot (not all) of his money from the slave trade. Totally abhorrent to us today but he also gave large amounts of money to Bristol charitable causes, so in his time was he a bad man? Colston's  infamous statue was not erected until 1895, more than 150 years after his death, so even then he was admired by the people of Bristol. My home city is Liverpool, another city hugely benefiting from the slave trade and a city where you will see numerous references to that trade but they are not hidden but openly discussed, as I believe they should be. You can not wipe out history (or our take on it) and you have to face it and learn from it. Yes the statue should be seen and if it is being moved, scars and all to a more appropriate place, so be it.

Fred

I wonder if any of the wealth from the slave trade funded medical research? 

[Ray]

4 minutes ago, floydraser said:

I wonder if any of the wealth from the slave trade funded medical research? 

Even if it did, it wasn't worth it!

[Vaughan]

I assume we have heard of the phrase "all shipshape and Bristol fashion"? It comes from the slave trade, funnily enough.

1 hour ago, Ray said:

This historian writes his view in the Guardian today. It can be said with some accuracy that where it is published lends a certain leaning in the political sense.

I haven't read this but I hear that another Guardian journalist, one Afua Hirsh, has also been giving her opinion.  She it was, who suggested a while ago that the statue of Nelson should be torn down from his column as it "glorifies a white supremacist".

Rather significant that this rabble in London at the weekend also defaced the statues of Abraham Lincoln and Churchill, during their violent protest about racism.  Churchill, who led the country through six years of world war to defeat what is arguably the worst regime of racial genocide in world history.

A funny thing to do to his statue on the anniversary of D Day, of all days.

This is what I meant earlier by blind, irrational and innate hatred.

[Poppy]

On 07/06/2020 at 07:02, MauriceMynah said:

I have been to quite a few demonstrations (working for stage and sound management) including anti war demo's, anti Government demos, and saving a London hospital (Whittingtons) and I have noticed the same demonstrators marching for any and every demo going.

It is my suspicion that the same thing is happening regarding the fireworks. There is a militant group who go to any demo they can, just to cause trouble. Wearing masks must be a Godsend for them.

There is evidence that undercover Police infiltrate groups over the long term, and will act as 'agent provocateurs' . This may - or may not - have been the case here. You can see why they would want to wear masks !

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_undercover_policing_relationships_scandal

 

[Tempest]

I was a police officer for 30 years and my thoughts for this weekend lay squarely with the men and women in blue (OK.. High Vis!) on the frontline who were let down so badly by their management.

In London they went softly, softly when even the most inexperienced probationer would have known that PPE would have been required which resulted in injuries and damage which could have been avoided and in Bristol where they were told to stand back whilst criminal damage was being committed and the obvious fallout of that.

Whatever your views on the topic in question, I can assure you when you start to allow the mobs to rule, we are in serious trouble as a country.

[Paladin]

3 hours ago, batrabill said:

Nonsense. Yours just changing the subject. Not falling for that. Start a thread about African genocidd why don’t you?

I thought this was about racism. The demonstrations in the UK were prompted by an event in the USA, so I don't think I'm changing the subject by mentioning racist behaviour in other countries, behaviour that involved the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people in ethnic minorities. I'm sorry if that doesn't chime with your agenda, but it can't and shouldn't be so lightly dismissed.

[Tempest]

6 minutes ago, Poppy said:

There is evidence that undercover Police infiltrate groups over the long term, and will act as 'agent provocateurs' . This may - or may not - have been the case here. You can see why they would want to wear masks !

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_undercover_policing_relationships_scandal

 

You have now put 2 links on this thread to try and undermine the police in the UK

Well done

One in which the officers where cleared and the second from wikipedia to justify your view that police are racists?

Very poor form

I hope you or your family never need the police in the future

[Poppy]

1 minute ago, Tempest said:

You have now put 2 links on this thread to try and undermine the police in the UK

Well done

One in which the officers where cleared and the second from wikipedia to justify your view that police are racists?

Very poor form

I hope you or your family never need the police in the future

You deny that it happened ?  You are absolutely certain that it's still not happening ?

https://www.channel4.com/news/undercover-police-officer-was-agent-provocateur

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15385434

https://policespiesoutoflives.org.uk/our-stories/

[Paladin]

14 minutes ago, Poppy said:

There is evidence that undercover Police infiltrate groups over the long term, and will act as 'agent provocateurs' . This may - or may not - have been the case here. You can see why they would want to wear masks !

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_undercover_policing_relationships_scandal

 

That article makes it clear that the enquiry found such behaviour to be totally unacceptable and the Met Police "stated the methodology had constituted abuse and a "gross violation" with severely harmful effects". The units have been disbanded. A great deal of police work is intelligence lead, with covert officers involved. That is entirely appropriate, subject to suitable restraints and supervision, which has, in some case, been absent.

[Tempest]

1 minute ago, Poppy said:

You deny that it happened ?  You are absolutely certain that it's still not happening ?

https://www.channel4.com/news/undercover-police-officer-was-agent-provocateur

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15385434

https://policespiesoutoflives.org.uk/our-stories/

If you want to keep up, I suggest you await the outcome of the public inquiry

The link is here if you wish to read the facts

https://www.ucpi.org.uk/

[Tempest]

3 minutes ago, Poppy said:

You deny that it happened ?  You are absolutely certain that it's still not happening ?

https://www.channel4.com/news/undercover-police-officer-was-agent-provocateur

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15385434

https://policespiesoutoflives.org.uk/our-stories/

Many undercover officers put their lives on the line to gather valuable evidence to take out extremely violent and dangerous criminals, drug dealers and terrorists

To keep you and I and our families safe

That I know for a fact!

 

[Ray]

40 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

I assume we have heard of the phrase "all shipshape and Bristol fashion"? It comes from the slave trade, funnily enough.

I haven't read this but I hear that another Guardian journalist, one Afua Hirsh, has also been giving her opinion.  She it was, who suggested a while ago that the statue of Nelson should be torn down from his column as it "glorifies a white supremacist".

Rather significant that this rabble in London at the weekend also defaced the statues of Abraham Lincoln and Churchill, during their violent protest about racism.  Churchill, who led the country through six years of world war to defeat what is arguably the worst regime of racial genocide in world history.

A funny thing to do to his statue on the anniversary of D Day, of all days.

This is what I meant earlier by blind, irrational and innate hatred.

I join you in condemning the vandalism and lack of respect. In any event the statue in Bristol should have been removed to a museum long ago but never torn down.

I mentioned elsewhere that nothing is ever simply black or white, Churchill remains one of the greatest of Englishmen for his leadership in WW2, I personally admire him for what he did and how he did it. But it is an easily researched and documented fact that he was a racist. In the same way that you can't rewrite history the bad has to stand along side the good.

This does not mean I condone the vandalism... but I do understand it!

Do read the article, it is good even if you don't agree with it.

[Chelsea14Ian]

53 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

I assume we have heard of the phrase "all shipshape and Bristol fashion"? It comes from the slave trade, funnily enough.

I haven't read this but I hear that another Guardian journalist, one Afua Hirsh, has also been giving her opinion.  She it was, who suggested a while ago that the statue of Nelson should be torn down from his column as it "glorifies a white supremacist".

Rather significant that this rabble in London at the weekend also defaced the statues of Abraham Lincoln and Churchill, during their violent protest about racism.  Churchill, who led the country through six years of world war to defeat what is arguably the worst regime of racial genocide in world history.

A funny thing to do to his statue on the anniversary of D Day, of all days.

This is what I meant earlier by blind, irrational and innate hatred.

This follows  a common  thread some will round on a figure of our history,and blame them for something that is not true.They knowledge of history is poor to say the least. Also now lots of jumping  on the bandwagon,including  high profile celebs.They would gain more respect  if they encourage discussions with government,national  and local.Not just point  the finger.Its worrying many politicians have not condemned the rent a mob causing all the violence and stupid trouble making.