Power Giving Way To Sail

[Paul]

20 hours ago, EastCoastIPA said:

The byelaws state "Sailing Vessel" means any vessel under sail other than a quanted vessel provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used.

I take that to mean not being used for propulsion. So a motor sailor could have the engine running to heat water and will still have priority as they are sailing. The moment they flick it into gear then they are a motor vessel even with sails up and you have equal priority.

30 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

Now, If I've got this right.

A  boat under sail has right of way over a motor cruiser.

A boat under sail but with it's engine running in neutral has right of way over a motor cruiser.

A boat under sail but with it's engine both running and in gear does NOT have right of way over a motor cruiser.

It will come as no surprise to anybody here that for me, this raises some questions.  :-)

No. I have queried this with a ranger, if the engine is running it is considered to be in use, so a sail boat with motor running be it inboard or outboard, in neutral or engaged is considered a motor vessel and yields to non powered craft, and likewise has no priority over any other motor vessel. 

If you think about it properly this makes sense as who is to know whether a sail boat with engine running has it engaged or not? 

 

[MauriceMynah]

Peter, there is a situation that has cropped up on many occasions, which has lead to my temper being stretched and my respect for the sailing community to be greatly diminished.  It usually happens on the Bure between Thurne Mouth and St Bennets. and when I'm heading up stream.

The river is pretty bendy there and can often be busy. I allow for that and tend to keep very much on "my side" of the river. I always keep a look out for sails and when seeing one, I move out towards a position I'll call half way across my side of the river, increasing my options for manoeuvring. As I proceed, I find the sailing boat is on my side of the river. As we pass, starboard to starboard I hear his engine and see his prop wash.

Am I annoyed? You bloody bet I am. There he is, getting everybody to get out of his way and just being a bloody minded PITA.

Result I think less of All wafis.and leaving me wondering  why sailors want to stop the "Them and us" attitude, or are surprised that it exists.

If this was just an occasional thing it might not make my blood boil, but it isn't, it's too frequent for me to pass it off.

 

[Nickwaiheke]

There is no doubt over the power giving way to sail rule but I think most of us would agree that it's also about sharing space with courtesy. What surprised me about Sunday is that the yacht skipper either through lack of skills or being bloody minded, put themselves in the path of the motorboats and paddlers leaving them with no option but stopping in a large queue. 

I don't know but I'm sure all the experienced people on here know that a golden rule is giving yourself as much space as possible before any restricted manoeuvre regardless of whether power or sail.  

the Horning stretch certainly seems to give a lot of entertainment !!

 

[grendel]

while wild moored on the ant (and in other locations) it surprised me at just how many sailing boats, both with sails up and not went past accompanied by the chug chug of an engine

[batrabill]

There is no right answer to this, and it is easy to understand why powered boaters are often confused, but I'd like to offer a few thoughts.

1. The river is not a road where you drive on the left.

2. The colregs do not say "keep to the right" they say, "On canal and river waterways, vessels should keep as far to the right as is safe and practicable (Rule 9)."

3. Passing ANY boat is a 2-player sport. On the road you can say "I was on the correct side, any collision must be your fault." That isn't the same on the river. The Colregs are clear that both skippers must take measures to prevent an accident.

4. I know that sailing puts MORE pressure on the other skipper. Sorry about that.

5. When sailing on the Broads you very often find you are very close to the edge in terms of getting round a corner. The sailing boat will "pinch up", trying to get as close to wind as possible while still keeping forward motion. This will often be cutting a corner on the "wrong" side of the river. Around Benets there is usually tons of room to do that. If you try it in Meadow Dyke going up to Horsey it would be crazy. 

If you look at the map of the Horning to Thurne mouth section you will see that it is full of 90 degree bends. It is rare to travel it in either direction without the need to tack.

6. You often don't know if you are going to make the corner until you get there. 

7. On a busy river many who have onboards will turn them on if they are struggling to make the corner, "just in case". Sometimes its not needed, sometimes it is very useful. Many of these skippers are also hirers who sail on the broads once or twice a year.

8. The alternative is a late tack (turning 90 degrees to awards the "right" side of the river) which will probably be slow (speed is lost in pinching) and will be 90 degrees across the river. This will be followed by a second tack, now turning to head up the river on the right side. This takes time and impedes both flows of river traffic.

A late tack will often confuse other boaters (it is COMMON to be asked, "why are you zig-zagging all over the place?") and will put you side-on to all traffic.

9. So the least worst solution is often to give it a bit of gas on the "wrong" side of the river, and then carry on.

10. The obvious thing to stop confusion is not to sail upwind. But that's called motor boating and none of us bought a sailing boat to do that.

11. Sailing boats aint going away, so the more you understand our annoying ways the better.

12. Angry shouting is not acceptable. Sailors have to accept that many don't know what they are up to.

We try VERY hard to be understanding, clear in our "instructions", and grateful for the 98% who do their best to help.

Hope that helps

 

[Vaughan]

4 hours ago, batrabill said:

We try VERY hard to be understanding, clear in our "instructions", and grateful for the 98% who do their best to help.

Hope that helps

Thank you for your post Bill, which I have read with interest.  I think it is a good summary of the situation from the point of view of the "normal" Broads cruising sailor.  Racing, of course, has it own rules, but they only concern those in the race!  Other users of the waterway are left even more confused, during regattas!

One thing I would mention, is your reference to Colregs (international rules for the prevention of collisions at sea) since on the Broads these are superseded (although closely followed) by the BA's own byelaws.  In the old days, the Yare up to Norwich was controlled by Gt Yarmouth Port Commissioners and was "pilotage waters" in terms of Colregs.  In other words a restricted channel, often marked with navigation buoys.  Nowadays that is not the case but the Broads are most definitely "restricted" waters!

The subject of the byelaws and wherries has come up and in this respect, there are some other ones to note :

23 (1) (a) The master of a power driven vessel . . . . . . . shall keep his vessel out of the way of :

     (1) (a) (ii) A vessel restricted in its ability to manoeuvre.

           (iii).     A sailing vessel.

          (iv).   A quanted vessel. 

It also says (C) (1) :

     The master of a vessel . . . . . . .(shall) avoid his vessel impeding the safe passage of a vessel constrained by its draught.

I would guess that Albion in her present condition draws about 5 feet and some of the larger racing yachts draw 4' 6'" or more.

You may have seen that Albion always tows a dinghy these days, usually lashed alongside the aft quarter and with a small outboard motor.  This is actually because of a tragedy which occurred many years ago, on a night passage, when someone fell in and the dinghy was not immediately available.  You can't stop a 40 ton wherry, running free with the tide, when someone falls in.  When she is on the Bure on a reach with the wind ahead and too narrow to tack, then they will give her a "prod" with the outboard dinghy to keep steerage way and get her round the next bend.

But is that "motor sailing"?  I would prefer to call it "mechanical quanting"  since there is no way you are going to stop Albion, or alter her course, with an outboard dinghy!  But does that then mean she is being towed by the dinghy?  In which case, other byelaws say you must keep out of her way anyway!

So I agree with what you say, as the point you make is that, on the crowded narrow waters of the Broads, it is a question of common sense, and "give and take"!

[Koolwabbit]

A big problem I have is motoring up the Chet to Loddon and there are a couple of bends where I have to motor on the wrong side (mast up) . Why ? Overhanging trees. A lot of hirers forget to take in the height of my mast

Nigel

[marshman]

But that does NOT give you the right of way - in fact IMHO that should make you unlikely to get it, either from a motor cruiser or an aux. powered sailing craft, as you are on the wrong side for a motorboat, irrespective of the trees!

[MauriceMynah]

6 hours ago, batrabill said:

There is no right answer to this, and it is easy to understand why powered boaters are often confused, but I'd like to offer a few thoughts.

1. The river is not a road where you drive on the left.

 

1 hour ago, Vaughan said:

So I agree with what you say, as the point you make is that, on the crowded narrow waters of the Broads, it is a question of common sense, and "give and take"!

 

11 minutes ago, Koolwabbit said:

A big problem I have is motoring up the Chet to Loddon and there are a couple of bends where I have to motor on the wrong side (mast up) . Why ? Overhanging trees. A lot of hirers forget to take in the height of my mast

 

5 minutes ago, marshman said:

But that does NOT give you the right of way - in fact IMHO that should make you unlikely to get it, either from a motor cruiser or an aux. powered sailing craft, as you are on the wrong side for a motorboat, irrespective of the trees!

And there you have it.  Give and give from the motor cruisers, take and take from the sailors. That's their idea of "give and take"

[grendel]

28 minutes ago, marshman said:

But that does NOT give you the right of way - in fact IMHO that should make you unlikely to get it, either from a motor cruiser or an aux. powered sailing craft, as you are on the wrong side for a motorboat, irrespective of the trees!

constrained by her draft, in this case the air draft due to the trees

[marshman]

Constrained by draught, does not in my book, mean air draught!!!!!!!

[Koolwabbit]

Marshmallow,  does this mean as I am not allowed to sail on the left, in your eyes, I cannot visit Loddon due to trees blocking my way ? What then happens to all the sail craft in marinas up  stream ?

Nigel

[Vaughan]

38 minutes ago, marshman said:

But that does NOT give you the right of way - in fact IMHO that should make you unlikely to get it, either from a motor cruiser or an aux. powered sailing craft, as you are on the wrong side for a motorboat, irrespective of the trees!

 

2 hours ago, Vaughan said:

23 (1) (a) The master of a power driven vessel . . . . . . . shall keep his vessel out of the way of :

     (1) (a) (ii) A vessel restricted in its ability to manoeuvre.

So maybe the BA - or the EA - or the local council - or Natural England - (whatever that is) should have properly maintained a legal navigation where, in the old days, there  weren't any trees overhanging the bank in the first place?

[marshman]

Of course, Nigel, you can sail on the left, subject to no one coming the other way - if they are on the correct side of the navigation, they logically have the right of way.

Vaughan - all it needs is a few  old and bold wherrymen to cut a few trees down as they once did to allow the wind to blow without hindrance! one wonders if they even bothered to ask the landowner 0 probably not!!!

[Vaughan]

52 minutes ago, marshman said:

But that does NOT give you the right of way - in fact IMHO that should make you unlikely to get it, either from a motor cruiser or an aux. powered sailing craft, as you are on the wrong side for a motorboat, irrespective of the trees!

And so what do you recommend, in this case?

Driving yourself into the trees in order to stop.

Waiting until everyone else has passed on their philanthropic way.

Extricating your rigging from the overhang in the hope that there is no damage.

Sweeping all the twigs, leaves and birds nests off the deck and then carrying on in the happy thought  that you are part of the carefree wonderland that is Broads boating.

Sorry, but it would be a lot better if the authorities concerned engaged themselves in the removal of overhang and the maintenance of a legal navigation.

[Vaughan]

7 minutes ago, marshman said:

Vaughan - all it needs is a few  old and bold wherrymen to cut a few trees down as they once did to allow the wind to blow without hindrance! one wonders if they even bothered to ask the landowner 0 probably not!!!

I very much agree with you there!

[WherryNice]

Out of interest is there a link to the Broads Byelaws on the forum somewhere ? I had a bit of a scan about and couldn't find one. If there isn't could one be created, perhaps in the Handy Information section?

[JennyMorgan]

9 hours ago, Paul said:

No. I have queried this with a ranger, if the engine is running it is considered to be in use, so a sail boat with motor running be it inboard or outboard, in neutral or engaged is considered a motor vessel and yields to non powered craft, and likewise has no priority over any other motor vessel. 

Then the Ranger urgently needs re-educating, plain and simple! Having an engine in tick-over is a valuable 'safety' back-up, especially in congested waters. It is no different to having s quant or paddle handy but there are times when a crew is either not able or not available to use a quant thus an engine acts as an alternative. I'm not knocking the BA just for the sake of it but in this instance they need to revise their thinking, if only from a safety aspect.  I shall refer this matter to the chairman of the BA's navigation committee because it is, if nothing else, a safety issue.

[BITTERNBOY]

I just give way to everyone and chill.

Sent from the Norfolk Broads Network mobile app

[Meantime]

1 hour ago, WherryNice said:

Out of interest is there a link to the Broads Byelaws on the forum somewhere ? I had a bit of a scan about and couldn't find one. If there isn't could one be created, perhaps in the Handy Information section?

https://www.broads-authority.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0019/180631/Navigation_Byelaws_1995-1.pdf

[Meantime]

10 hours ago, Paul said:

No. I have queried this with a ranger, if the engine is running it is considered to be in use, so a sail boat with motor running be it inboard or outboard, in neutral or engaged is considered a motor vessel and yields to non powered craft, and likewise has no priority over any other motor vessel. 

If you think about it properly this makes sense as who is to know whether a sail boat with engine running has it engaged or not? 

 

Yet the byelaws do say differently! to the ranger you spoke to. I would suggest that you could run the engine to generate hot water with no intention of using it for propulsion. The byelaws is specific in that it mentions whether propelling machinery is being used, not whether the engine is running.

I would suggest that an engine can be used to generate hot water and charge the batteries. When you engage the clutch to connect the drive shaft and prop via the gearbox to the engine, then you are using propelling machinery as in the full lot.

It's not mentioned in the byelaws, but I seem to remember that it is normal to fly a flag or burgee if truly motor sailing, as in you don't expect a motor cruiser to give way to you, but I cannot remember or find what it is?

[Meantime]

9 hours ago, batrabill said:

There is no right answer to this, and it is easy to understand why powered boaters are often confused, but I'd like to offer a few thoughts.

1. The river is not a road where you drive on the left.

2. The colregs do not say "keep to the right" they say, "On canal and river waterways, vessels should keep as far to the right as is safe and practicable (Rule 9)."

3. Passing ANY boat is a 2-player sport. On the road you can say "I was on the correct side, any collision must be your fault." That isn't the same on the river. The Colregs are clear that both skippers must take measures to prevent an accident.

4. I know that sailing puts MORE pressure on the other skipper. Sorry about that.

5. When sailing on the Broads you very often find you are very close to the edge in terms of getting round a corner. The sailing boat will "pinch up", trying to get as close to wind as possible while still keeping forward motion. This will often be cutting a corner on the "wrong" side of the river. Around Benets there is usually tons of room to do that. If you try it in Meadow Dyke going up to Horsey it would be crazy. 

If you look at the map of the Horning to Thurne mouth section you will see that it is full of 90 degree bends. It is rare to travel it in either direction without the need to tack.

6. You often don't know if you are going to make the corner until you get there. 

7. On a busy river many who have onboards will turn them on if they are struggling to make the corner, "just in case". Sometimes its not needed, sometimes it is very useful. Many of these skippers are also hirers who sail on the broads once or twice a year.

8. The alternative is a late tack (turning 90 degrees to awards the "right" side of the river) which will probably be slow (speed is lost in pinching) and will be 90 degrees across the river. This will be followed by a second tack, now turning to head up the river on the right side. This takes time and impedes both flows of river traffic.

A late tack will often confuse other boaters (it is COMMON to be asked, "why are you zig-zagging all over the place?") and will put you side-on to all traffic.

9. So the least worst solution is often to give it a bit of gas on the "wrong" side of the river, and then carry on.

10. The obvious thing to stop confusion is not to sail upwind. But that's called motor boating and none of us bought a sailing boat to do that.

11. Sailing boats aint going away, so the more you understand our annoying ways the better.

12. Angry shouting is not acceptable. Sailors have to accept that many don't know what they are up to.

We try VERY hard to be understanding, clear in our "instructions", and grateful for the 98% who do their best to help.

Hope that helps

 

As Vaughan has pointed out the Colregs do not apply to the Broads, only the BA Byelaws, which do say that power driven or manually propelled vessels should keep to the Starboard Right side of Channel.

Interestingly there is no right or wrong side to overtake a vessel.

[grendel]

and thus the confusion reigns, do we give way to that sailing vessel as i can hear an outboard somewhere, or not, best bet is for everyone to be clear with their intentions, and do their best to avoid confrontation, rather than just yelling for everyone to get out of their way.

this is a bit reminiscent of the wooden boat show last year when a sailing boat insisted he had right of way and cut close in front of a pair of vessels, one under tow, well the towing vessel slowed, but the towed nearly flattened said sailing boat. and that was a senior member of a yacht club who should have known better..

[Meantime]

3 minutes ago, grendel said:

and thus the confusion reigns, do we give way to that sailing vessel as i can hear an outboard somewhere, or not, best bet is for everyone to be clear with their intentions, and do their best to avoid confrontation, rather than just yelling for everyone to get out of their way.

this is a bit reminiscent of the wooden boat show last year when a sailing boat insisted he had right of way and cut close in front of a pair of vessels, one under tow, well the towing vessel slowed, but the towed nearly flattened said sailing boat. and that was a senior member of a yacht club who should have known better..

I think the best bet, if it has sails set and is moving assume it is under sail and you need to give way. If the engine happens to be running then assume he is warming water, or recharging the batteries, and at least not doing so on a mooring.

If they are running the engine for propulsion, just remember at the end of the day the over riding byelaw is that everyone needs to do their best to avoid an impact. Call them (insert whatever name here) and smile and carry on. You've not hit them and don't let it spoil your cruise.

[JennyMorgan]

13 minutes ago, EastCoastIPA said:

It's not mentioned in the byelaws, but I seem to remember that it is normal to fly a flag or burgee if truly motor sailing, as in you don't expect a motor cruiser to give way to you, but I cannot remember or find what it is?

A cone should be hoisted in the fore part of the rigging.

15 minutes ago, EastCoastIPA said:

Yet the byelaws do say differently! to the ranger you spoke to. I would suggest that you could run the engine to generate hot water with no intention of using it for propulsion. The byelaws is specific in that it mentions whether propelling machinery is being used, not whether the engine is running.

Obviously I would agree with the above. To my way of thinking there are times when it is prudent common sense and good seamanship to have an engine on standby. Not for nothing is an engine sometimes referred to as a mechanical quant!