Power Giving Way To Sail

[Nickwaiheke]

I've always been a believer in being as courteous as possible on the water, restricted space included and in my limited experience on the broads (being a newbie) everyone so far seems great and friendly. 

Sunday was interesting and we motorsailed gently from Acle to Horning, the broads yachts made a great sight and it seemed like the large number of power boats coming the other way were entertained by the sight.  As we cam into Horning a more modern sailing yacht decided to drop its sails heading straight into the line of advancing motorboats, kayaks and paddle boards creating chaos, the person at the helm shouting at the power boats to give them space.  They had so much space off to starboard yet seemed to want to make a point with the power boats.

Hopefully this sight was very much a one off and most are happy sharing a beautiful space together. 

[marshman]

There's always one!!!!

[grendel]

if they are under power not sail they count as a power boat, if they have sails up but are under power they are a powered craft, i have seen a lot with full sail up under power, heading into the wind, then they have as much manoeuvrability as any other powered craft. if they are not solely using sail they have no special rights or status to demand anyone gives way to them. Unless they were not under power and just had remaining momentum after dropping sail, they had no special rights.

[grendel]

generally all of the sail boats I saw indicated to me which side they wanted me to pass, though I had to make it known to one that I needed a hint, after which they let me know.

[Polly]

Way way out of order.

[JennyMorgan]

In truth, probably hadn't got a clue!  

[floydraser]

At Rutland Water, outside of organised events, sail gives way to fishermen in their outboard powered 18 footers. If the fish refuse to bite, for entertainment fishermen will happily motor into the line of a sailing boat and stop, forcing a change of course.

[MauriceMynah]

This gives rise to a question that has bothered me for some years.   When is a motor-sailer sailing and when is he motoring?

If said craft is tacking under sail, but has his engine ticking over in neutral , it is surely just as manoeuvrable as a motor boat for the want of flicking it in gear. 

[CambridgeCabby]

What I find more annoying is at places such as Ludham Bridge nobody seems to understand that you should give way at the bridge to those travelling with the tide , at slow speed trying to hold station whilst with the tide is bl***y awkward .

[JennyMorgan]

42 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

If said craft is tacking under sail, but has his engine ticking over in neutral , it is surely just as manoeuvrable as a motor boat for the want of flicking it in gear. 

No, the sails are up and liable to take over should the wind puff up, as can and does happen. I do sometimes leave my motor in tick-over but only as a very last resort, maybe to give me steerage in very low winds whilst tacking, equally I could use a quant or a paddle! I might use the engine to ensure that I remain head-to-wind whilst lowering my sails however I would be under power and would rely on an understanding and courteous helmsman on the powered boat, there are a few about! 

[Meantime]

55 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

This gives rise to a question that has bothered me for some years.   When is a motor-sailer sailing and when is he motoring?

If said craft is tacking under sail, but has his engine ticking over in neutral , it is surely just as manoeuvrable as a motor boat for the want of flicking it in gear. 

The byelaws state "Sailing Vessel" means any vessel under sail other than a quanted vessel provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used.

I take that to mean not being used for propulsion. So a motor sailor could have the engine running to heat water and will still have priority as they are sailing. The moment they flick it into gear then they are a motor vessel even with sails up and you have equal priority.

[Meantime]

The exemption to the above definition would appear to be Wherries.

A Sailing Vessel shall include a wherry under sail notwithstanding that it is also being propelled by machinery; and for this purpose a wherry shall mean a vessel known in the Broads as a wherry or wherry yacht.

Now the following maybe a little contentious  but I would like it to be known that henceforth for the purposes of marketing only, in the Broads National Park the area formally known as The Norfolk and Suffolk Broads I am rebranding my motor cruiser as a wherry yacht. 

[marshman]

So where will you put your sails???

Its not at all contentious but even following your rebranding, your motor cruiser will still need sails!

[Meantime]

11 minutes ago, marshman said:

So where will you put your sails???

Its not at all contentious but even following your rebranding, your motor cruiser will still need sails!

I'm sure I can find an old quilt cover and a couple of broom sticks 

[Vaughan]

4 hours ago, EastCoastIPA said:

I'm sure I can find an old quilt cover and a couple of broom sticks 

You'll need rather more than that to call yourself a wherry, old chap.

I can assure you that when a motor cruiser, whose skipper thinks he has room (or even priority?) glances off the 3 inch galvanised Binn Iron around the shoulder of her bow, the Albion doesn't even twitch. It doesn't even put a shiver into the set of the sail.

If you wish to contest your rights with a wherry, based on some sub-clause in the bye-laws, I think you will find that it will be your insurance that will have to pay for your repairs.  

[Meantime]

13 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

You'll need rather more than that to call yourself a wherry, old chap.

I can assure you that when a motor cruiser, whose skipper thinks he has room (or even priority?) glances off the 3 inch galvanised Binn Iron around the shoulder of her bow, the Albion doesn't even twitch. It doesn't even put a shiver into the set of the sail.

If you wish to contest your rights with a wherry, based on some sub-clause in the bye-laws, I think you will find that it will be your insurance that will have to pay for your repairs.  

Vaughan, reread my very much tongue in cheek comments. At no point did I state I wanted to contest my rights with a wherry. 

I very much agree with your first two paragraphs.

Welcome back by the way 

[JennyMorgan]

41 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

You'll need rather more than that to call yourself a wherry, old chap.

Indeed! A Jenny Morgan being a must have item, bin irons are also pretty useful,  as is a bonnet, a slipping keel, a carling board and planceas! 

[stumpy]

Its often an education listening to the VHF at Felixstowe on a weekend when there's racing going on out of the Royal Harwich Yot Club. Pilots driving big box ships have a very large vocabulary!

[Cheesey69]

matters get even more complicated when you throw in paddle boarders and kayaks. 
Watched sailers have a terrible time with them as suddenly they have to give way as seen at Ant mouth 

[thunder]

8 hours ago, JennyMorgan said:

No, the sails are up and liable to take over should the wind puff up, as can and does happen. I do sometimes leave my motor in tick-over but only as a very last resort, maybe to give me steerage in very low winds whilst tacking, equally I could use a quant or a paddle! I might use the engine to ensure that I remain head-to-wind whilst lowering my sails however I would be under power and would rely on an understanding and courteous helmsman on the powered boat, there are a few about! 

If your engine is running you are classed as a motor vessel _ full stop!

[YnysMon]

It’s not that easy to take sails down when trying to keep your boat head to the wind. Not if you have to veer off anyway.

[JennyMorgan]

41 minutes ago, thunder said:

If your engine is running you are classed as a motor vessel _ full stop!

Sorry and all that but I must disagree! An auxiliary sailing boat is only under power  when the engine is actually providing propulsion. I have sailed on one of the wherry yachts, one that was fitted with an electric motor. The skipper, on one occasion, took emergency avoiding action rather than sink an errant day-boat.  The electric motor was not running yet it was on stand-by. It was turned on and was immediately used to sheer the wherry, White Moth, away from the day-boat. The only way to have had a diesel engine on similar stand-by would have been to have it running, running just in case, but not running to provide propulsion.  

[YnysMon]

One of the things that I hadn’t really realised until we started sailing on the Broads is how unreliable the wind is compared to sailing off the coast. You can be struggling along one minute without enough wind in your sails then the next minute a gust will take you and you overtake a boat that a few minutes back overtook you.

Makes for interesting sailing, but I think a lot of motor boaters think saileys have the same sort of speed control as motors have. Except the wind doesn’t quite play the game.

[MauriceMynah]

Now, If I've got this right.

A  boat under sail has right of way over a motor cruiser.

A boat under sail but with it's engine running in neutral has right of way over a motor cruiser.

A boat under sail but with it's engine both running and in gear does NOT have right of way over a motor cruiser.

It will come as no surprise to anybody here that for me, this raises some questions.  :-)

[JennyMorgan]

8 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

Now, If I've got this right.

I believe that you have, at last!

For the nit-pickers among us I'm sure that there will be questions!!