Power Giving Way To Sail

[Meantime]

1 minute ago, JennyMorgan said:

A cone should be hoisted in the fore part of the rigging.

Obviously I would agree with the above. To my way of thinking there are times when it is prudent common sense and good seamanship to have an engine on standby. Not for nothing is an engine sometimes referred to as a mechanical quant! 

I would go further and say it is the ones on the Ant who refuse to give up sailing when there is barely a breath of wind and who cause a log jam who actually do need to start their engine either for assistance, or just to find a safe place to let people pass. As much as having an engine gives certain options, trying to hold station with the current coming from behind you and poor steerage in reverse gives few options for trying to stay away from the boat in front of you or the bank. Motor cruisers also need to learn to give themselves space to be able to hold station when it's needed. Nothing worse than having a boat 2 foot off the stern when you need to hold station.

[Koolwabbit]

Off subject slightly, during lock down I have been watching utube vlogs on the  canals. My question is , a canal wide enough for two craft but only one towpath. How did the boats ,before motorised, cross ?

Nigel

[marshman]

Of course PW I dont disagree that it is perhaps a "safety" feature but I actually think the Ranger is probably right, in the technicality of the law. I would suggest you try your argument with the Committee at Cowes for running your engine at the start of the Round the Island race when it would actually be true but probably not permissable!!!!

[JennyMorgan]

I tend to sail the more sluggish type of boat and it has not been unknown for me to end up in irons when tacking as a mafi has kindly overtaken me just as I was tacking against the bank. Being in irons is akin to an aircraft stalling. Either my crew has kicked the boat round with his feet or with a quant, or I have kicked the gear stick forwards and counted myself lucky that I had prudently started the engine when I spied the oncoming chaotic  mungle of hysterical confusion ahead of me. 

[JennyMorgan]

15 minutes ago, marshman said:

Of course PW I dont disagree that it is perhaps a "safety" feature but I actually think the Ranger is probably right, in the technicality of the law.

East Coast IPA wisely wrote:

'The byelaws is specific in that it mentions whether propelling machinery is being used, not whether the engine is running.'

Like many of the BA's bylaws this one is possibly a tad woolly but surely prudent seamanship should be the driving force, pun intended!

 

[TheQ]

7 hours ago, EastCoastIPA said:

I would go further and say it is the ones on the Ant who refuse to give up sailing when there is barely a breath of wind and who cause a log jam who actually do need to start their engine either for assistance, or just to find a safe place to let people pass. As much as having an engine gives certain options, trying to hold station with the current coming from behind you and poor steerage in reverse gives few options for trying to stay away from the boat in front of you or the bank. Motor cruisers also need to learn to give themselves space to be able to hold station when it's needed. Nothing worse than having a boat 2 foot off the stern when you need to hold station.

Don't assume all sailing boats have engines,  many don't,  some of those that do,  haven't used them in years and might not work.. 

[batrabill]

We were repositioning our Yeoman from Martham to Horning. Yeoman are 21 foot keel boats with no engine, although you can put an outboard on a mount. The wind died to nothing and we were drifting away from Horning on the tide with the sails up. We asked a passing hireboat if they could give us a tow, which they very kindly did, "Have you broken down?" the woman said. What can you say? "Yes," seemed the best answer.

[Paul]

8 hours ago, TheQ said:

Don't assume all sailing boats have engines

but all sailing boats DO have engines, be they petrol powered, diesel powered or quant powered. 

I have to agree with the Ant comments, I've been there, behind a sailing boat under full sail in virtually zero breeze, of which absolutely none is making it through the trees and travelling at 0.0038kt. You know they are going slowly if I catch them up, as I like to go as slowly as possible on the Ant, engine as quiet as possible, and as long as we have steerage way that's fast enough. I do like to keep up with the speed limits in some places but others are to be enjoyed, the Ant is high on that list of course. I'm happy for it to take all day to get from Stalham to Ranworth. 

Sadly that usually means I travel along the Ant with something of a queue behind me, and I let them by at every opportunity. Just because I'm happy at 2mph I don't assume any right to impose this on others. If you are becalmed, and not making way other than drifting then please be thoughtful to those behind. 

 

[YnysMon]

The trouble with being becalmed on the Ant is that the end can suddenly pick up and blow you sideways before you’ve had a chance to get any forward motion (and therefore ability to steer). Been and done that...stuck in a tree.

[TheQ]

On 05/08/2020 at 12:14, Paul said:

but all sailing boats DO have engines, be they petrol powered, diesel powered or quant powered. 

Yeomans don't carry you quants,

 

 

[JennyMorgan]

51 minutes ago, TheQ said:

Yeomans don't carry you quants,

Or paddles? 

[Timbo]

On 04/08/2020 at 20:22, Koolwabbit said:

Off subject slightly, during lock down I have been watching utube vlogs on the  canals. My question is , a canal wide enough for two craft but only one towpath. How did the boats ,before motorised, cross ?

Nigel

Now then Nigel we are firmly in Uncle Albert's domain here and I asked him the same question years ago. Here's what I can remember of his explanation.

 The 'snatch'  (tow rope) between the 'oss' (horse) or 'hanimals' (donkeys or mules used in pairs) and the towing post on the 'oss boat' (canal vessel towed by a horse) is made of cotton so would sink to the bottom of the cut (canal) when slack. So one 'oss' would slow up, the 'snatch' would sink allowing the other 'oss boat' to float over the 'snatch' while the 'oss would step over the snatch. Once they had passed then the 'oss would 'take up the slack'.

[Vaughan]

I have also read somewhere that they often arranged to change horses when they met and then set off again, so that each horse ended up back in its own stable.

[RS2021]

A fly boat (express service) would have a scythe like blade fitted vertically at the front of the boat. Any oncoming boat which was not quick enough to drop it's roap would have it cut!

[Cheesey69]

Does the BA rules out weigh the col regs?

[Meantime]

5 minutes ago, Cheesey69 said:

Does the BA rules out weigh the col regs?

Yes, the col regs do not apply to The Broads. The byelaws are sort of based upon them but modified for the Broads, some might say worded rather badly and open to a lot of interpretation.

[Cheesey69]

Thank you. 
One rule in the col regs I didn’t know still applied was the one that’s says any master of a vessel shall do their best to avoid a collision, I may be paraphrasing that a bit. 
Or as my instructor said “Don’t be dead right”

[Meantime]

The Byelaw below specifically revokes the Colregs for The Broads area.

Byelaw 5 Disapplication of The Collision Regulations

The Collision Regulations as hereinafter defined shall not apply in any waters to which these Byelaws apply.

The equivalent Byelaws to the Colreg you mention are these ones I believe. A sort of catch all avoid collision at all cost and applies to all vessels.

11 Risk of Collision 

(a) The master of a vessel shall use all available means appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions to determine if risk of collision exists.

(b) If there is any doubt such risk shall be deemed to exist.

12 Action to Avoid Collision

(1) The master of a vessel shall ensure that any action taken to avoid collision shall if the circumstances of the case admit be positive, made in ample time and with due regard to the observance of good seamanship.

(2) The master of a vessel shall ensure that:
(a) any action taken to alter course or speed to avoid collision shall if the circumstances of the case admit be large enough to be readily apparent to another vessel observing visually.
(b) a succession of small alterations of course and/or speed is avoided.
(c) action taken to avoid collision with another vessel shall be:
(i) such as to result in the vessel passing at a safe distance;
(ii) carefully checked by the master until the other vessel is finally past and clear.

(3) The master of a power-driven vessel shall if necessary to avoid collision or to allow more time to assess the situation slacken the speed of the vessel or take all way off by stopping or reversing its means of propulsion.

[Cheesey69]

The equivalent Byelaws to the Colreg you mention are these ones I believe. A sort of catch all avoid collision at all cost and applies to all vessels.
 

 

 

[batrabill]

Haven’t done a side by side comparison but as I have always understood it the Byelaws are the Colregs with a few exceptions.

 

All the stuff about trying to avoid other boats is the same. 
 

The flying of a cone to indicate you are a sailing vessel under power is one of the exclusions. 

[VetChugger]

Thre are, of course, both narrow, 6' 10" and broad canals up to 14' wide. The Leeds & Liverpool, Calder & Hebble and Huudersfield Broad are wide beam and the Huddersfiels Narrow obviously narrow. Further south, narrow canals are much more common. In the north the canal/river navigations wer very much for commercial movement of aggregates, flor and grain and coal. Mostly wide beam. They really are a wonder of victorian engineering to read about. And there are a total of some 2000 miles available for navigation! Not bad methinks! All I amsure Alan will also eagerly confirm.I am aware he also had a long period of navigation these wonderful waterways.

[MauriceMynah]

Two things are now clear to me. Everybody who knows the rules know them as absolute fact, and second They all disagree with each other. My original question stands. When is a motor-sailer motoring and when is he sailing?

This question has nothing to do with col-regs, narrow canals or the price of Wadworths, but it is relevant to situations that frequently occur on the Norfolk Broads.

[marshman]

For what its worth, my view is that if the engine is on, then you must be deemed to be motor sailing. The other party must be able to ascertain what you are doing and if the exhaust is sputtering then, in my view, you are motor sailing.

I do not believe the distinction about whether its in gear or out of gear,  simply that if you cannot sail properly without the need for an engine, then you should motor and NOT try to do otherwise. IMHO thats what a prudent skipper should do!!! (And it would help others too! )

[Meantime]

Which therefore begs the question is it a considerate or prudent sailor who will wait until he is moored up to run his engine to get hot water?

[MauriceMynah]

Boil a kettle!  :-)